Runway 09-27

[viscount]

A little more information on the A.380 at Liverpool and a great photo of the low go-around on 27 can be found towards the end of thread: derbosoft.proboards.com/thread/164

[bluefox]

The taxiway infrastructure at Liverpool may not be suitable for the A380s wheel base. It is reported Birmingham Airport have spent about £1m upgrading runway exits etc to accommodate the A380.

[viscount]

This sort of reason was given in the 70s long before the first Jumbo landed (and with the long curving 'link' taxiway could have had some validity) along with wing tip clearance of fences and buildings. Liverpool's 09/27 and parallel taxiway is of the simplest possible shape, without any compromises to fit it into an existing runway/taxiway pattern as is the case at Birmingham and Manchester. When Emirates first operated their A.380s into Manchester there were all sorts of departure restrictions imposed due to the 23R taxiway meeting the runway at an acute angle without a turning circle. Indeed I seem to recall that for the first couple of weeks they departed from an otherwise closed 23L, until they had to use 23R for some reason and found they could in practice do so. The initial operators of a type put all sorts of restrictions on their use until the crews are totally confident in handling both in the air and on the ground. This has been true of most of the larger aircraft at the time of their introduction eg Boeing 747, Concorde, Boeing 777 and Airbus A.380. It is possible that the turning circles at either end of LJLAs 09/27 might be tight, but if the A.380 can turn onto 05R at Manchester I don't forsee a major issue at Liverpool, if and when an operator has a need to bring one into Liverpool.

[bluefox]

Brian, I am not aware of any constructed turning circles as such, at Liverpool, the runway is the same width full length is it not? At Manchester the runway exits/links were too tight for the A380 and they had to dig out soil and lay concrete "fillets", I think the aircraft can only use certain designated links; from this point of view I could see an issue at Liverpool, but am happy to be wrong.

[viscount]

Bluefox, look at any airfield plan or photo of 09/27 and describe the exit/entry between runway and parallel taxiway at either end of the runway using any other word than a 'circle' (OK maybe it is a 'regular radius turn through a full 180 degrees'), look at Manchester (23R) and the correct word is indeed 'fillet'. Now tell me where Liverpool would have to construct such a fillet as to facilitate wide undercarriage ops? I would agree that at Liverpool use of the 09 fast turn off may present a turning problem, but would an A.380 be in such a hurry as to need use the early turn off anyhow?

[bulldog]

Our runway gets a mention in the what happened in the past section of "straight and level" in Flight this week; 50 years ago;
" The Duke of Edinburgh, in a Hawker Siddeley Andover was the first pilot officially to fly from Liverpool Airports new runway. The 7,000ft runway, costing over £3 million has a 3,000ft potential extension area, and is the nucleus of what will virtually be a new airport on the site by the 1970s"

[bluefox]

(Bluefox, look at any airfield plan or photo of 09/27 and describe the exit/entry between runway and parallel taxiway at either end of the runway using any other word than a 'circle' (OK maybe it is a 'regular radius turn through a full 180 degrees'), look at Manchester (23R) and the correct word is indeed 'fillet'. Now tell me where Liverpool would have to construct such a fillet as to facilitate wide undercarriage ops? I would agree that at Liverpool use of the 09 fast turn off may present a turning problem, but would an A.380 be in such a hurry as to need use the early turn off anyhow?)

Ok, maybe some confusion with the terminology here, I take it you are referring to the 09 and 27 loops. As regards fillets at Liverpool, obviously I am not the person with the tape measure, no doubts ops will/have checked everything if necessary.

[Deleted]

It appears the 50th was celebrated by the airport staff. There must be forum members working there that knew this was happening but kept it hush, hush. I can see now why Maverick flagged it up.

www.airlive.net/news-liverpool-airport-celebrate-runways-50th-anniversary/

[Deleted]

May 11, 2016 9:37:35 GMT 1 optimum1878 said:

If I am not mistaken it went over to the wirral show which was on at the time.

Spot on and was the reason why it was here.

[Beemer]

Here it is, almost a touch and go.

A380 at LJLA 12-07-2008 by Beemer328i, on Flickr

[vctr]

The A380 did a tour of the north west that day, taking in Manchester, Liverpool and Hawarden if I remember correctly.

[fredjones3uk]

I used to play as a young boy on the works that ended up as the runway if i remember it was Trentham construction that did the work i must of been about 10 years old.

[northbynorthwest]

I was part of some interesting discussions at work today regarding Liverpool Notams.  A bit of background, I am a Flight Dispatcher for a certain rather large US carrier, normally working transpacific flights, and rarely dealing with transatlantic flights anymore. This evening, some of my colleagues, who were planning eastbound transatlantic flights, were having a hard time finding alternate airports in Europe due to lousy weather forecasts.  We also have to make sure that the runways and navigation aids are operational, so we keep a very close watch on the notams as well as the weather forecasts.

The subject of Liverpool came up, along with questions about the interpretation of current notams relating to the ILS's on rwy 27 and 09.  I suggested to my coworkers that they call Liverpool ATC Tower to see if they could get clarification of these notams.  I am not sure if they did, but I will check with them tomorrow and let you know what they found out.  I have pasted the Liverpool notams below, with the notams in question highlighted in yellow.  Notams are often poorly written, can be difficult to read and/or interpret, and can often contradict other notams.  

Notam  1C5093/16 states that lower than Cat I operations were suspended as of October 5th, 2016 until January 5th, 2017.  This implies that Cat II approaches are currently not authorized.  The approach minimums for rwy 27 are 200ft ceiling and RVR 550m (equates to 1800ft) for a Cat I approach, versus  100ft and RVR 300m (equates to 1000ft)  for a Cat II approach.  

Notams 1C5921/16 09 and 1C5921/16 27 both refer to removal of authority for Cat II approaches in the UK AIP as of November 21, 2016 on a permanent basis. (Or at least until authority is given again.)  These notams imply that Liverpool had Cat II approaches for both rwy 27 and 09.  However, the current Jeppesen charts that we use only show Cat I approaches to rwy 09, whereas Cat I and II approaches to rwy 27. 

Can anyone on the forum provide any details or background to these notams, such as why the notams were issued, and why was Cat II authorization apparantly suspended?  I can imagine that maybe flight tests were conducted and some issues were not resolved.  If indeed the airport does currently only have Cat I approaches, it might explain why there were numerous diversions one day last week.  This certainly doesn't bode well for winter ops this year.

 I know there has been a lot of discussion about the lack of progress towards Cat III for rwy 27.  The airport really needs to get its ducks in order and give this the priority it deserves.  Cat II is absolutely essential this time of year.  Cat III would be very, very nice to have, and would help keep the likes of easyJet and Ryanair happy by avoiding diversions and keeping schedules intact. 


Liverpool Notams December 6th, 2016

16.Nov.2016 0724z - PERM 1C5840/16
STAR TIPOD 2F AND TIPOD 2G
CHANGE TO SHOW FL100 BY NANTI
AD 2-EGGP-7-2 STAR INFO BOX REFERS

04.Nov.2016 1600z - 30.Dec.2016 1800z 1C5660/16
ALL SIDS OTHER THAN THE POLE HILL 4T/5V SUSPENDED DUE WAL OTS. OPERATORS SHOULD
FLT-PLAN STANDARD ROUTINGS.
ATC WILL ASSIGN HEADING AND LEVEL INSTRUCTIONS AS REQUIRED.
NOISE ABATEMENT PROCEDURES AS PER UK AIP EGGP AD 2.21 SHALL
REMAIN APPLICABLE.

05.Oct.2016 2359z - 05.Jan.2017 2359z    1C5093/16
LOWER THAN CAT 1 OPERATION SUSPENDED

26.Sep.2016 0906z - 25.Dec.2016 2359z 1C4904/16
CRANE. CONSTRUCTION SITE CRANE OPERATING AT PSN 532110N 0024246W
(WIDNES, HALTON). UP TO 485FT AGL/520FT AMSL. FOR INFO CONTACT 07816
077131. ON EXPIRY OF THIS NOTAM DETAILS WILL BE INCLUDED IN THE UK
AIP ENR 5.4 16-09-0665/AS4

16.Sep.2016 1602z - PERM 1C4683/16
CAT II/III OPERATIONS, REPLACE THE TEXT IN SUB PARAGRAPH (C) WITH
THE FOLLOWING: ARRIVING AIRCRAFT MUST CONTINUE TO THE END OF THE
RUNWAY TO VACATE VIA CHARLIE. AIRCRAFT MUST REPORT RUNWAY VACATED
AND REPORT REACHING ALPHA 8
AD 2 EGGP-2.20 PARAGRAPH 3 REFERS

21.Nov.2016 1026z - PERM     1C5921/16 09
PARAGRAPH 6 USE OF RUNWAYS:
REMOVE TEXT
(C)IN ACCORDANCE WITH EU OPS SUB-PART E THE FOLLOWING APPROACH
OPERATIONS ARE AVAILABLE TO APPROVED OPERATORS
(I)RUNWAY 09 SUITABLE FOR LOWER THAN STANDARD CATEGORY I OPERATIONS
SUPPORTED BY AN ILS CLASSIFICATION OF II/D/2
(II) RUNWAY 27 SUITABLE FOR LOWER THAN STANDARD CATEGORY I
OPERATIONS SUPPORTED BY AN ILS CLASSIFICATION OF II/D/3
UK AIP EGGP AD 2.20 REFERS

21.Nov.2016 1026z - PERM     1C5921/16 27

PARAGRAPH 6 USE OF RUNWAYS:

REMOVE TEXT

(C)IN ACCORDANCE WITH EU OPS SUB-PART E THE FOLLOWING APPROACH

OPERATIONS ARE AVAILABLE TO APPROVED OPERATORS

(I)RUNWAY 09 SUITABLE FOR LOWER THAN STANDARD CATEGORY I OPERATIONS

SUPPORTED BY AN ILS CLASSIFICATION OF II/D/2

(II) RUNWAY 27 SUITABLE FOR LOWER THAN STANDARD CATEGORY I

OPERATIONS SUPPORTED BY AN ILS CLASSIFICATION OF II/D/3

UK AIP EGGP AD 2.20 REFERS

11.Oct.2016 0800z - 30.Dec.2016 1800z 1C5112/16 09
DIRECT ARRIVALS VIA REXAM AND VIA NW WAL VOR (INSTRUMENT APPROACH
CHART LIVERPOOL) ILS/DME/NDB(L) RWY 09 AND LIVERPOOL APPROACH CHART
LOC/DME/NDB(L) RWY 09 NOT AVAILABLE.

[delta1]

Hello northbynorthwest.
Just sent you a message.
Delta1