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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2012 22:09:53 GMT 1
Bus companies are charged, I am told, to use the likes of the bus station at Liverpool One. True but it is owned by the taxpayer and the charges go towards it's upkeep thereby, relieving the taxpayer of this additional burden. The airport on the other hand is privately owned and the point I'm trying to make is; if the airport is charging bus/coach company's then the proceeds should go towards the upkeep of none profit-making routes and these shouldn't be financed by the taxpayer. Therefore, if the airport were to pay for it, there is no reason why the 501 shouldn't continue or we even see the creation of new routes.
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Post by LPL on Dec 18, 2012 23:51:14 GMT 1
Bus companies are charged, I am told, to use the likes of the bus station at Liverpool One. True but it is owned by the taxpayer and the charges go towards it's upkeep thereby, relieving the taxpayer of this additional burden. The airport on the other hand is privately owned and the point I'm trying to make is; if the airport is charging bus/coach company's then the proceeds should go towards the upkeep of none profit-making routes and these shouldn't be financed by the taxpayer. Therefore, if the airport were to pay for it, there is no reason why the 501 shouldn't continue or we even see the creation of new routes. Liverpool One bus station is owned by Grosvenor. www.liverpool-one.com/website/Modules/StoreDirectory/StoreListing/CentreMap.aspxwww.liverpool-one.com/website/1media.aspx
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Post by sfp on Dec 19, 2012 8:48:37 GMT 1
Re: Bus station charges. These apply at all Merseytravel Bus Stations - Birkenhead, St Helens etc. No sure if same applies at Liverpool South Parkway.
501 service was certainly supported by European money even though there were already commercial services operating - not sure of the financial input of others.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 11:16:27 GMT 1
Re: Bus station charges. These apply at all Merseytravel Bus Stations - Birkenhead, St Helens etc. Not sure if they extend to the Merseytravel administered satellites; West Kirby, Heswall, Kirkby, Huyton, Halewood, Speke, Belle Vale, etc. Under the Freedom of Information act, would Merseytravel have to disclose that if asked? I can't think of any-other commercial organisation that has publicly funded services other than the airport (major shopping centres, where there is a public need, could be an exception), most, if not all, have to pay for them themselves. Even the bus stations that do charge are now struggling as the bus companies pull out. At the height of the bus wars theses were highly sort after but a lack of competition has put an end to that. In order to raise funds for the upkeep of Liverpool One's bus station Merseytravel have introduced coach parking/drop-off areas this year.
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Post by charlie on Dec 20, 2012 11:56:45 GMT 1
The Halton Curve is a must for the airport politicians have been discussing this for years yet no one can fashion a decent argument or debate regarding it,this stretch of rail beggars belief with government if they want to see improvement on the rail and less road traffiic then this line must be opened,the population of north wales and its environs need this line ,the airport needs this to increase revenue,what is galling is that i couldnt see manchester airport ignoring this,they would move hell and high water to utilize this service in an endeavour to maximise the potential of the airport links,all local politicians and the public should be hounding their MPs to lobby the transport ministry to get this curve OPEN
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Post by LPL on Dec 20, 2012 14:24:25 GMT 1
Not sure if they extend to the Merseytravel administered satellites; West Kirby, Heswall, Kirkby, Huyton, Halewood, Speke, Belle Vale, etc. Under the Freedom of Information act, would Merseytravel have to disclose that if asked? They would if its publicly owned, which I presume they are.
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Post by gannet on Dec 20, 2012 16:19:55 GMT 1
The Halton curve will not be reopened for quite a while unless there is some, however unlikely, private initiative. There are several reasons for this -
It would not meet the criteria of the 'northern hub' in manchester which is being designated by all major 3 parties as the major interchange in the North West. (Once H2S is operational, there will be no direct routes from Liverpool of over 100 miles unless via Manchester).
It does not comply with the 'managed decline' of Liverpool, again by all 3 mainstream parties.
It could potentially lose revenue for the new Runcorn bridge if car passengers switched to rail.
I would love to be proved wrong however, as it benefits not just the airport and wales but South Liverpool/North West Cheshire as well.
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Post by andyh on Dec 20, 2012 16:49:16 GMT 1
Gannet, I'm not sure where you get your information from but I would suggest checking your sources. Your reasoning around the non-progression of the Halton Chord sounds more like a conspiracy theory than any kind of reality. Any delay is more to do with proving the business case than any plan to drive traffic onto the new Mersey Crossing or supporting the Northern Hub.
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Post by LPL on Dec 20, 2012 18:03:32 GMT 1
Speculation elsewhere is that Liverpool Airport owners, Vantage Airport Group/Peel Airports Ltd, have divested their share in Doncaster Sheffield to the Peel Group.
That will leave only the one UK airport, Liverpool Airport, in the Citi (Bank) Infrastructure/Vancouver Airport Authority backed Vantage Airport Group.
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Post by Nick Bartley on Dec 20, 2012 18:14:48 GMT 1
"(Once H2S is operational, there will be no direct routes from Liverpool of over 100 miles unless via Manchester)."
Would like to know where you get this info from - there will be a few rail companies interested that their services are going be scrapped ! - and I would suggest it is going to take quite a while before (or even if) HS2 gets built. The first section to Birmingham hasn't even been sorted yet ( with lots of NIMBY's saying it is a great idea as long as it doesn't go near their lovely house/village). Halton Curve will only be sorted out if there is a proper business case for it and at the moment there isn't. Also as for Manchester not ignoring this - well I'm afraid that is exactly what they did when the rail connection was first put in there, trains could only get to the airport chord from one direction (Manchester I think). Railway staff at the time were saying that it should be able to be accessed from both directions , even a through staion so that Manchester to London services could run via the airport but it was decided against.
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Post by gannet on Dec 20, 2012 22:11:22 GMT 1
I dont really want to get away from airport business, which is the primary point. I'm afraid to say its got nothing to do with conspiracy.
I wont bore you in depth, as I can obtain information dating as far back as 1976 when proposals to effectively 'downsize' Liverpool were suggested to an implementation date a few years later. It has been watered down a little and the Government released documentation last year about their managed decline of Liverpool. There are various, some complicated reasons for this, but cost savings and politics unfortunately are part of the package.
However, most of the information is easily sourced.
Over the last few years, liverpool has lost direct links to almost every long distance destination in the u.k. Now there are no services to Scotland, Wales or the South West, when there were regular services. All of the services have been transferred to Manchester. In part, this is due to the franchise rail arrangements set by the Government of which Liverpool is very much on the periphery and is not included in most.
There is now only One direct service of over 100 miles left, that does not route via Manchester (Even most of them now necessitate a change). That sole link is to London. I suppose you could include Birmingham at around that distance however. As you can see, Long distance travel from Liverpool has already been decimated and there is not much left.
Once H2S is operational, then the proposals, already available to the public, is for no fast trains to run to London from Liverpool, Only what is now the London Midland routing, i.e. via Birmingham. Whether or not a change will be required is not stated. However the journey times stated is around 3 hours. There is a slight possibility, dependent upon finance being available, of a H2S link joining up with the main route, initially given as South of Manchester and after lobbying by some MPs' possibly now South of Crewe. But this will be after the main H2S (if it goes ahead) and subject to finance. However, they would prefer to use the high-speed link designated between Liverpool-Newton le Willows-manchester to feed traffic onto H2S. (OK that last element is not documented, just my thoughts).
Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm only using information what is readily available. I really think the halton chord would be successful, but there is far more involved than providing a good business case. The Government has stated, recently and quite clearly that there will be no money for local rail openings.
(p.s. I could also provide information on the road network which has a similar resonance), but i've had my say, either agree or disagree but can we concentrate on the airport please? I won't offer anything else on the matter as it appears to displease some, and that wasn't my intention.
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Post by gannet on Dec 20, 2012 22:17:13 GMT 1
Just an addendum to the above, in trying to raise support for the Halton Chord and to stop the deterioration of rail services to and from Liverpool I held a meeting with an M.P. at Westminster a couple of years or so ago. They were already fully aware of the above and it was mentioned that because of this they were fighting for a direct H2S service to Liverpool otherwise liverpool would be left in the cold. Since then they have stated that they would withdraw support for the H2S unless a link was provided, I believe that they were partially successful it getting it reconsidered but could not do anything about the services already lost.
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Post by LPL on Dec 21, 2012 21:11:53 GMT 1
Speculation elsewhere is that Liverpool Airport owners, Vantage Airport Group/Peel Airports Ltd, have divested their share in Doncaster Sheffield to the Peel Group. That will leave only the one UK airport, Liverpool Airport, in the Citi (Bank) Infrastructure/Vancouver Airport Authority backed Vantage Airport Group. This has now been confirmed - 'The Peel Group have today acquired the shareholding in Doncaster Sheffield Airport formerly held by Peel Airports Limited, co-owned by Vantage Airport Group. There will be no change in shareholding at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, which remains jointly owned by Vantage Airport Group and The Peel Group. The excellent partnership enjoyed to date between Vantage Airport Group and The Peel Group will be extended through long-term service contracts to manage parts of the operation at Doncaster Sheffield Airport, such as Air Traffic Control. It will remain business as usual for airport employees, airlines and passengers.' www.robinhoodairport.com/press-releases/news-release-20th-december-2012.html
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Post by andyh on Dec 21, 2012 21:56:48 GMT 1
Which presumably leaves VAG with the profitable part of the business? Perhaps now they're not subsidising DSA and MME they will have more cash to invest at LPL?
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Post by LPL on Jan 2, 2013 17:48:02 GMT 1
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