Listing of all MGAE/MAS books published

[kevmul]

Jan 8, 2015 22:43:02 GMT 1 viscount said:

1970 February USAF Serials 1946-1969 Ed.2 P. Danby 72 £0/06/6 reprint, with amendments
1970 July British Gliders Ed.1 P.H. Butler 58 £0.35 9500780 2 ground breaking research

6/6d in February, 7/- (35p) in July.

Another example of decimalisation being used to hike up the price!

It was the same with Mars Bars      


Kev

[viscount]

Interesting point Kevmul, however you have picked the wrong book to make an example of! British Gliders was 7/= (7 shillings) on launch and 35p after decimilisation, a direct translation (I've amended the table to show this more clearly). US Air Force Serials was priced 6/6 on launch July 1969, and by the time of decimilisation it had been reprinted and even the reprint was running low. The correct new pence price would have been £0.32 1/2 pence. In words, thirty-two and a half pence - such a difficult sum of money that my 2010 keyboard cannot cope with typing the 1/2 using one key! I cannot find what price US Air Force Serials 1941-1969 sold for post decimilisation as the 'Flypast' of the day does not state the price - and the book sales sheet supplements have long disappeared, but whether the 1/2 penny was kept, dropped or added on, I just do not know! It is true that British Gliders at 7/= was smaller than US Air Force Serials, but cost more - I fancy that the price difference is due to British Gliders having a very much smaller print run, (so higher per unit cost) and produced new a year later, at a time when 'inflation' was starting to enter the British vocabulary, although a while before it got a firm grip on the British economy.

Decimilisation change-over day of the UK currency was the 15th February 1971 with the change from Pounds, shillings and pence (£ s d) (with 12 pence to the shilling; and 20 shillings, or 240 pennies to the Pound) to simply 100 new pence to the Pound (£ np). Sometime later the 'new' being dropped.

Interesting observation and shows that at least one person has examined the list closely. I'm still digging to uncover the details to fill the spaces, but it was all a considerable time ago. Great times though for those around and involved.

[viscount]

MGAE/MSAE/MAS PUBLICATIONS
-AN UPDATED COMPLETE LISTING

It is 3 months since I compiled the listing shared a few posts back on the previous page. I have now, by complete chance, come across a list I compiled in late 1978 with a limited distribution of 6: self (MAS book sales), Ken Ellis (Editor Flypast and author), Phil Butler (author), Alan Schoefield (MAS Chairman), Brian Billington (Treasurer) and the Minutes Book. In my late 20s, would have never considered then that there would be interest in the list after I had retired! The great thing is that the list includes number of each title printed, researched during 1978 from old committee meeting books.

As the list has been so completely revised, I'll post as a new post and delete the previous one. To get in more columns, I've made greater use of abbreviations. On a small screen the columns may distort.

BOOKS PUBLISHED 1961-1986

Published   Abbreviated Title	       Edition	Compiled by	pages  Printed  Price	ISBN	    Printer  Notes
										
1961 May   The Irish Civil Register	Proto1	PHB + GJRS                      1/2d		    dup
1961 June  Wrecks and Relics	        Ed.1	D.J. Stephens		600	2/6d		    dup	
1962 May   Aircraft of the Irish Rep.	Proto2				        2/6d		    dup	
1962 June  British Airfield Guide	Ed.1	PHB + DJS		6-700?	2/6d		    dup	
1962 July  British Glider Markings	Proto	PHB + PS                100	2/6d		    dup	
1963 Apr   Wrecks and Relics	        Ed.2	D.J. Stephens		1000	3/6d		    R-X,B	
1963 Jul   Irish Aircraft Register	Proto3	P.H. Butler	8	1500	2/=		    R-X,B	
1963 Nov   Scandinavian Civil Registers		R.J. Goring	38		5/=		    Essex	
1964 Jan   French Civil A/c Register	part 1	P.H. Butler	48	1000	4/6d		    R-X,B	
1964 Apr   Switzerland Civil Register		R.J. Goring	26	800?	3/6d		    Essex	
1963 Nov   French Civil A/c Register	part 2	P.H. Butler	46	1000	4/6d		    R-X,B	
1963 Jan   French Civil A/c Register	part 3	P.H. Butler	44	1000	4/6d		    R-X,B	
1964 Apr   French Civil A/c Register	part 4	P.H. Butler	16	1000	2/=		    R-X,B  amendments/additions
1965 Nov   British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.2	P.H. Butler	23	2000	4/=		    R-X,M	
1968 May   Wrecks and Relics            Ed.3	S.G. Jones	60	3000	5/=                 R-X,M	
1969 July  USAF Serials 1946-1969	Ed.1	P. Danby	72	2000	6/6d	none	    R-X,M	
1970 Feb   USAF Serials 1946-1969	Ed.2	P. Danby	72	2000	6/6d		    R-X,M  amended reprint
1970 July  British Gliders          	Ed.1	P.H. Butler	58	1000	7/=	9500780 2   R-X,M  = £0.35np	
1972 Feb   British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.3	P.H. Butler	36	1000	£0.40	9500780 3   R-X,M	
1972 Mar   Irish Aircraft	        1st	P.H. Butler	72	1000	£0.70	9500780 4   R-X,M	
1972 Mar   British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.4	P.H. Butler	36	1000	£0.40	9500780 5   R-X,M  amended reprint
1972 Apr   >Aero<views '72		        SGJ + RL	12	1000		none	    L Exp  A4 format
1973 Feb   US Navy Serials 1941-1972	Ed.1	P. Danby	78	2000	£0.60	9500780 6   R-X,M	
1973 July  British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.5	P.H. Butler	42	2000	£0.40	9500780 7   R-X,M	
1973 Oct   US Navy Serials 1941-1972	Ed.2	P. Danby	80	1000?	£0.60	9500780 8   R-X,M  amended reprint
1974 Mar   Wrecks and Relics - 1	Repro	(SGJ)	        14	750	£0.25	none	    MAS	   A4 format,retyped
1974 May   British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.6	P.H. Butler	44	1000	£0.45	902420 00   R-X,M  error ISBN 02?
1974 June  USAF Serials 1946-1974	Ed.3	P. Danby	92	2000	£0.90	902420 00   R-X,M	
1974 Aug   Wrecks and Relics	        Ed.4	K. Ellis	88	3000	£0.90	9500780 9   L Exp	
1974 Nov   A History of RAF Woodvale	1st	A.P. Ferguson	30	1000	£0.35	902420 01   L Exp	
1975 Jan   USAF Serials 1946-1974	Ed.4	P. Danby	92	2000	£0.90	902420 03   R-X,M  amended reprint
1975 May   British Gliders	        Ed.2	P.H. Butler	72	1500	£0.80	902420 04   L Exp	
1975 May   History of the Short Skyvan		MAS + UAS	32	1000	£0.30	902420 05   MAS	   A4 format stapled
1975 Dec   British Homebuilt Aircraft	Ed.1	K. Ellis	112	1000	£1.40	902420 06   Jones	
1976 Mar   British Independent A/L	Vol.1	A.C. M Jones	120	3000*	£2.00	902420 07   Jones  A4, joint LAASI
1976 May   British Independent A/L      Vol.2	A.C. M Jones	120	3000*	£2.00	902420 08   Jones  A4, joint LAASI
1976 May   British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.7	P.H. Butler	28	5000*	£0.50	902402 11   Jones	
1976 May   US Navy Serials 1941-1976	Ed.3	P. Danby	100	2000	£1.50	902420 13   Robin	
1976 June  Wrecks and Relics	        Ed.5	K. Ellis	108	3000	£1.50	902420 12   Jones	
1976 Aug   British A/F: Past and present        PHB + MCMcI	two	6000*	£0.20	902420 14   Jones  A3 flat sheet
1976 Nov   British Independent A/L	Vol.3	A.C. M Jones	128	2800*	£2.00	902420 09   Jones  A4, joint LAASI
1977 May   British Museum Aircraft		KE + PHB	168	3000	£2.00	902420 15   Robin  square bound
1977 May   US Navy Serials 1941-1976 	Ed.3R	P. Danby	100	1500	£1.50	902420 17   Robin  amended reprint
1977 May   British Independent A/L	Vol.4	A.C. M Jones	130	3000	£2.00	902420 10   Jones  A4, joint LAASI
1977 May   British Independent A/L	Index	A.C. M Jones	16	3000	free	902420 16   Jones  A4, with Vol.4
1977 June  USAF Serials 1946-1977	Ed.5	P. Danby	112	2500	£1.60	902420 18   Robin	
1977 Sept  British Air Arms		        BB + PHB	76	4500*	£2.00	902420 19   Robin  A4, new logo
1977 Oct   A History of RAF Shawbury		A.P. Ferguson	60	1500	£1.00	902420 20   Robin	
1977 Dec   Air Min		                P.H. Butler	32	1000	£1.20	902420 21   Robin	
1978 Feb   USAF Serials 1946-1977	Ed.5R	P. Danby	112	2000	£1.60	902420 22   Robin  amended reprint
1978 Apr   On Guard		                K. Ellis	54	1500	£1.35	902420 23   Robin	
1978 May   Under B Conditions		        D.S. Revell	104	2000	£2.25	902420 24   Robin	
1978 July  Wrecks and Relics	        Ed.6	K. Ellis	132	3000	£2.30	902420 26   Robin  square bound
1978 Aug   British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.8	P.H. Butler	36	4000	£0.75	902420 25   Jones	
1978 Aug   A/c of Todays RAF		        R. Ward	        two	3000	£0.25	902420 27   Jones  A3 flat sheet
1978 Nov   A History of RAF Sealand		A.P. Ferguson	80	2000	£1.60	902420 28   Robin	
1979 Feb   Wrecks and Relics 1963	Repro  (K. Ellis)	20		£0.90	902420 29   Robin  (W&R 2, new ed.)
1979 Apr   British Homebuilt Aircraft 	Ed.2	K. Ellis	212		£3.95	902420 32   Robin  square bound
1980 Mar   Wrecks and Relics	        Ed.7	K. Ellis	152		£3.95	902420 34	   square bound
1980 Sept  British Gliders	        Ed.3	P.H. Butler	102		£3.90	902420 35   R Col	
1980 Dec   A History of RAF Woodvale	2nd	A.P. Ferguson	68		£3.00	902420 36   Sandy	
1981 Sept  British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.9	PHB + MCMcI	32		£2.00	902420 37   Sandy  incl fold-out map
1981	   British A/F: Past and Present	PHB + MCMcI	two		£0.40		    Sandy  A3 flat sheet
1982 Apr   Wrecks and Relics 	        Ed.8	K. Ellis	194		£4.95	902420 39		
1983	   In Uniform		                K. Ellis	108		£5.50	904597 49	   jointly with MCP
1983 May   Illustrated Hist of L'pool Apt       P.H. Butler	78		£7.50	902420 40   Sandy  A4 landscape
1984 May   Wrecks and Relics 	        Ed.9	K. Ellis	222		£5.95	904597 50   Nene   jointly with MCP
1985 May   British Isles Airfield Guide	Ed.10	PHB + MCMcI	32		£2.90	902420 41   Sandy  incl fold-out map
1986 Apr   Wrecks and Relics	        Ed.10	K. Ellis	258		£7.50	904597 63   Nene   jointly with MCP

NOTES:

Col 1, PUBLISHING DATE. This is generally the 'launch date', the month the title went on sale. However pre 1965 and 1979 onwards the date is that the foreword was written, generally 6 to 8 weeks before going on sale.

Col 2, TITLE. To make space for so many columns of information, some titles are slightly abbreviated. Most appear in full on an earlier post on page 1.

Col.3, EDITION. Some of the earliest titles were not considered as 'first editions', so in true aviation stype are here called 'prototypes'. Two titles are labled 'repro' for reproductions of the original book in a retyped altered format. The editors for both W&R 1 and W&R 1963 reproductions differed from the original authors, so are shown in (brackets).

Col.4, EDITORS. Most initials in the list also appear as full names. Matching initials to informal names

BB   Brian Billington       RJG   Ron Goring                      DR   Doug Revell
PHB  Phil Butler            SGJ   George Jones                    PS   Peter Schofield               
PAD  Peter Danby            ACMJ  Tony Merton Jones               DJS  Don Stephens                 
KE   Ken Ellis              RL    Rod Ludvigson                   GJRS G. Skillen
APF  Aldon Ferguson         MCMcI M.C. McIvor                     RW   Dick Ward
                            MCP   Midland Counties Publications   UAS  Ulster Aviation Society

Col.5, PAGES. On the early books, pages numbers included the back cover, sometimes the front too. Only a guidance as to book size.

Col.6, TOTAL PRINTED. As recorded in the committee minutes. * denotes the figures combine the original print run and a subsequent direct reprint (with no amendments) eg BIAL Vols 1, 2, 3 original print run 2000, plus a further 1000 in 7.77, 9.77 and 800 for BIAL Vol 3 in 10.76. Vol.4 and Index both printed 3000 on production. BAA 3000 pus 1500 8.78, while BIAG 7 was printed as 2000 plus 3000 10.76 and the British Airfields map 3000 on launch and a further 3000 a year later 9.77.

Col.7, COVER PRICE. Price is that on launch, retail over-the-counter sales, postage & packing charged extra.

Col.8, ISSN/ISBN. When the first 'USAF 1946-1969' title was reviewed in 'Flight International' (on a subsequent sales came close to selling out) it was commented that there was no ISSN book number. The reprint was likely number 01 of our ISSN allocation 0 9500780* +, followed by ISBN 0 902420** +, where ** is the book number and + a random final number. The initial 0 and the random number have not been included above for simplicity. Why a number appears twice and others are omitted is a mystery, but there was confusion at times. Some may have been reserved for amended reprints or new editions that never made it to print eg numbers 30, 31 33 and 38.

Col.9, PRINTERS. Printers varied with time, price and quality.

dup    The M.G.A.E. Gestetner duplicator        R-X,B  Rank-Xerox, Birmingham
Essex  Essex Publicity                          R-X,M  Rank-Xerox, Manchester
Jones  R.E. Jones of Llandudno Junction         R Col  Repro Colour, Colwyn Bay
L Exp  Litho Express, Colwyn Bay                Robin  Robin Press, Peel Green
MAS    M.A.S. own offset litho printer          Sandy  Sandypress Ltd, Salford
Nene   Nene Litho, Wellingborough (via MCP)

Col.10, NOTES. Include format if the larger A4 size, square binding and if produced jointly with LAASI or MCP (Midland Counties Publications).

FLAT and FOLDED SHEETS. In addition to the books, two spin-offs, were the A3 colour map from British Isles Airfield Guide. This was sold separately either as a sheet or folded (map one side, decode to the numbers on the back). Later used in BIAG Eds 9 and 10, with a new edition of the map in the book folded, and on sale as a sheet. Earlier the black & white line drawings of unit badges and aircraft side view paint schemes used in British Air Arms were rearranged as an A3 sheet and sold separately from the book.

COVERS. The very earliest (1961 and 1962) publications had a card cover enclosing stapled 'quarto' pages. The Rank-Xerox printed publications had a paper cover with a typed title, although some, such as the Swiss Register had a single colour on the cover. From 1968 generally a card cover with title and line drawing or photos(s). From British Air Arms in 1977 a 'house' cover style with twin 'wrap-around' lines opening out to form MAS for all books, except 'British Independent Airlines' and 'An Illustrated History of Liverpool Airport', but included the three produced with Midland Counties Publications under their ISBN.

SOCIETY NAME. The initial titles were published by the Merseyside Group of Aviation Enthusiasts (MGAE), which had been formed during 1956. This was changed to the Merseyside Society of Aviation Enthusiasts (MSAE) in January 1963. The mouthful that was the MSAE changed to the much more manageable Merseyside Aviation Society (MAS) at the April 1972 AGM - this was after the 1972 books had gone to print, apart from '>Aero<views 72' which was the first published under the MAS name. The MAS ceased as an active organisation at the very end of 1986, although it was a fair few years later that financial affairs were finally wound-up.

[gerrymanning]

Brian, just a small point on this list, edition 2 of Wrecks and Relics (April 1963) was NOT duplicated but printed by Rank-Xerox Birmingham.

[viscount]

I've never seen an original 1963 'Wrecks and Relics' Ed.2, just the 1979 re-worked 'Wrecks and Relics-1963'. The mistake originates in my 1979 researched listing, sorry. The list has been amended, thank you Gerry. I should have doubted the original info though on two grounds, the size of the print run and the style of cover quoted.

The MGAE monthly members magazine was Gestetner printed on foolscap paper (a little longer and shade narrower than A4) from late 1956 until March 1962. Then from April 1962 until December 1962 on quarto paper (foolscap width but a third shorter) stapled into larger blue heavy paper fold-over cover. This was also the system used, as far as I am aware, for the three 1962 publications. From January 1963 MSAE 'Flypast' was printed by litho printing by Rank-Xerox of Manchester with smaller print and photographs on folded foolscap, a big jump in both cost and appearance. Naturally this professional printed format was used for the next publications which as Gerry has pointed out was also printed by Rank-Xerox, but at Birmingham. Professional Litho printing permitted better quality, larger print runs with no extra effort! The question now in my mind is how were the two 1961 publications presented? Were they foolscap printed and corner stapled as per the magazine? Few will know the answer!

I know I'm getting old now that I have just needed to explain how Imperial paper sizes compare to A4!

[viscount]

MSAE & MAS BOOK COVERS

Even though I am missing 8 titles/editions from my book collection (of the near 60 produced), I thought it might be fun to thumbnail illustrate all the book covers produced by the MGAE, MSAE and MAS in the period 1961 to 1986. Most of my MSAE/MAS books have been well thumbed and indeed are still regularly used, so have gathered a patina of finger grease, creases, tears, coffee stains and even sunlight fade over the years - this shows even at much reduced image size!

With the exception of the 1963 'Irish Aircraft', I have not included any initial booklets that acted as prototypes for the later true Edition 1 of a title. I am listing the titles in the sequence that the first edition of the title appeared. To shorten the post I have combined some titles with similar themes eg Airfield Histories or Ken's W&R 'spin-off' titles etc.

So how many have you got on shelves? How many were you even aware of? Mine are not up for sale though!

WRECKS AND RELICS Don Stephens/George Jones/Ken Ellis (and continued from Ed.11, 1988 onwards to published solely by MCP)







Editions 1 to 10 published in 1961, 1963 (both Don Stephens), 1968 (George Jones), 1974, 1976, 1978, 1980, 1982, 1984 & 1986 (all Ken Ellis). Eds 9 and 10 produced jointly with MCP but with the MAS logo cover design. Also illustrated are the reproduction Ed.1 in 1974 (A4 stapled, prepared by George Jones) and reproduction Ed.2 (called 'W&R 1963', prepared by Ken Ellis) published in 1981.

BRITISH ISLES AIRFIELD GUIDE Phil Butler, with maps in later editions by M.McIvor.





Editions 1 to 10 published in 1962, 1965, 1972, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1978, 1981 & 1985. Of these edition 4,5,6 & 7 were essentially minor revisions with updates of the previous edition - and probably all had the same style of simple printed colour card cover (some in different colour shades).

National Current Registers for SCANDINAVIA, SWITZERLAND R.J.Goring and FRANCE (in 4 volumes) by Phil Butler



Scandinavian Registers 1963; Swiss Register 1964; French register in 4 volumes (all covers to the same formula) 1964.

UNITED STATES AIR FORCE SERIALS since 1946 Peter Danby



USAF Serials 1946-1969 Ed.1 1969 (Ed 2 reprint 1970); USAF Serials 1946-1974 Ed.3 1974 (Ed.4 reprint 1975); USAF Serials 1946-1977 Ed.5 (incl 1978 reprint)

BRITISH GLIDERS Phil Butler



Edition 1 1970; edition 2 1975 (all the covers suffered from scratching despite replacement by the printer!); edition 3 1980.

IRISH AIRCRAFT Phil Butler



Third prototype booklet 1963; edition 1 1972; subsequent update and correction sheets (A4 corner stapled) 1974.

<AERO>VIEWS '72 George Jones & Rod Ludvigson plus SKYVAN PRODUCTION HISTORY Graham Skillen/UAS & MAS



<Aero>Views'72 logically published in 1972 (A4), and the History of the Short Skyvan and production list in 1975 (A4 stapled)

UNITED STATES NAVY SERIALS since 1941 Peter Danby



USN Serials 1941-1972 Ed.1 1972 (Ed.2 reprint 1973); USN Serials 1941-1976 Ed.3 (Ed.4 reprint 1977)

AIRFIELD HISTORIES Aldon Ferguson



RAF Woodvale ed.1 1974; RAF Shawbury 1977; RAF Sealand 1978; RAF Woodvale ed.2 1980.

BRITISH HOMEBUILT AIRCRAFT SINCE 1920 Ken Ellis



Ed.1 1975; ed.2 1979.

BRITISH INDEPENDENT AIRLINES SINCE 1946 Tony Merton Jones



Published jointly MAS & LAASI in 4 Volumes. Volumes 1, 2 and 3 in 1976, Volume 4 & Index/corrections in 1977. Much later reprinted in one volume by TAHS.

BRITISH MUSEUM AIRCRAFT, ON GUARD, IN UNIFORM Ken Ellis



British Museum Aircraft 1977; On Guard 1978; In Uniform 1983 (jointly with MCP).

Specialist topics: BRITISH AIR ARMS Brian Billington & Phil Butler, artwork by Dick Ward, AIR MIN Phil Butler, UNDER B CONTITIONS Doug Revell



British Air Arms published 1977, A4 format; Air Min also 1977; Under B Conditions 1978.

AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY OF LIVERPOOL AIRPORT Phil Butler



Published by MAS 1983 (A4 landscape format). Further much revised editions published by Tempus in 2004 and 2008 are also illustrated.


If anyone has a copy of a title/edition not illustrated, then PM me if you are able to scan and send by e-mail attachment. Thanks.

So over a period of time this thread has gone from initial question, through a building of information, to a complete list and now the majority of the title covers being illustrated and so doing justice to the toils of many to produce and sell so many books. The authoritive list sought by 'Gwoof' in the OP of this thread has now (eventually) been provided, if not surpassed now we have covers as well. Many titles broke new ground when first published and some still stand as the reference work on a topic even after so many years. I consider the activities of the Merseyside Group of Aviation Enthusiasts, Merseyside Society of Aviation Enthusiasts, Merseyside Aviation Society, Merseyside Branch of Air Britain and North West Air News Group all to be a long heritage foundation of the current nwan forum.

When images were replaced in late July 2021, I had the option of reducing the image size by a further 25% presenting it as a thumb-nail which could be enlarged on a click-over. However as that larger image came with a load of advertising, and covers could be enlarged only one at a time, I kept the much reduced by pixal number image rather than the tiny thumb-nail one. My choice, but if anyone would like a full size image as an e-mail attachment let me know.

[vfr800]

I have the Aldon Ferguson 'History of Woodvale', also his 'History of Burtonwood' and 'Wartime history of Warton' though can't remember authors name(its up in the loft). All totally fascinating!

[viscount]

Another thread I've replaced the images into, so this is both a 'bump up' and appeal to try and get the cover collection even more complete (page 2 of the thread)

While I have been able to illustrate some 70% of the covers, there are some I don't have.

If anyone has the following titles on their bookshelves, could they make a straightforward scan of the front cover and attach it as an e-mail to me. PM me if you need my e-mail. I'll download it and adjust to the pixel width, tidy up as necessary etc and post here.

Most of the titles I'm missing are early ones, so are rare; while the British Isles Airfield Guides had very similar covers over 5 editions with only minor changes in image size or the shade of card used for the cover, the main 'tell' being the copyright date inside the back cover!

Wrecks & Relics                 Ed.1    Don Stephens     1961
Wrecks & Relics                 Ed.2    Don Stephens     1963
Wrecks & Relics                 Ed.3    George Jones     1968
British Isles Airfield Guide    Ed.1    Phil Butler      1962
British Isles Airfield Guide    Ed.6    Phil Butler      1974
British Isles Airfield Guide    Ed.7    Phil Butler      1976
Scandinavian Register           Ed.-    R J Goring       1963
Air Min                         Ed.-    Phil Butler      1977

By August 2023 this thread tracing the origins and titles published by the MGAE, MSAE and MAS 1961-1986 has been viewed 6,460 times, and 3 months later (end of October '23) 6,550 times. Quite likely a fair few of those were due to Googling key words. I hope that the question asked in 2014 and the subsequent search for answers, with eventually a definitive list discovered and illustrations of the covers has helped.

My role in all of this was in organising advertising and in distributing mail order and bulk sales in the period 1975 to 1982 while as a member of the MAS Committee 1974-1986.