KLM

[davel]

Just had a report that KLM are pulling out of LPL. If this is true it's a big blow to the hopes of many for worldwide destinations from LPL. We must have affected the services from MAN because that's what they said when they came.

[vinnym]

Just checked their website for random dates in June 2012 and are still available

[cessfly]

Just checked their website for random dates in June 2012 and are still available

Not necessarily solid evidence of them staying as passengers booked would be transferred to the Manchester flights. Still hopefully this turns out to be false as Liverpool Airports credibility would take a hit if they do pull out.

[Maddog]

Dec 13, 2011 15:52:58 GMT 1 davel said:

Just had a report that KLM are pulling out of LPL.

Source?

[davel]

The KLM rep for LPL was the source.

[steh]

If true its extremely sad that although passenger numbers have been good it has not been supported fully by businesses so yields will be low in respect of the number of higher fares sold per flight.

Again, jumping the gun as nothing is confirmed, but a full investigation needs to be carried out by the airport as to why the route was pulled if thats the case. It can't be down to lack of marketing on KLM or Liverpool Airport's part because its advertised all over. There seems instead to be a general ignorance or refusal amongst so many locals to use Liverpool Airport because they feel its facilities and waiting times for security/immigration are too long and these need to be addressed.

And if the route is being stopped and Manchester has had anything to do with it, given that airport is owned by local authorities Liverpool's politicians need to get involved and demand answers as to why they are engaging in such blatant bullying and anti cometitiveness.

[cessfly]

As steh pointed out there has been no lack of marketing or support for the route from the airport or airline. Sometimes people really need to face facts however and realise that some routes are not operable from certain airports. Of course there is no solid information confirming what davel has posted so hopefully it wont happen.

"And if the route is being stopped and Manchester has had anything to do with it, given that airport is owned by local authorities Liverpool's politicians need to get involved and demand answers as to why they are engaging in such blatant bullying and anti cometitiveness."

That is drivel, all companies are anti-competition to an extent, but if you honestly believe Manchester have a say in where else KLM operate to then you are misguided. They started the route with the clear intention that the flights had operate successfully without impacting Manchesters traffic. If this has not happened then it would explain why KLM are pulling out if in fact they are.

[LPL]

Comparison load factors for the KLM route for 2010 and 2011.

col1-date
col2-daily freq
col3-load factor

Jan-10	2	48%	Jan-11	3	53%
Feb-10	2 / 3	58%	Feb-11	3 / 4	63%
Mar-10	3	60%	Mar-11	4	53%
Apr-10	3	59%	Apr-11	4	68%
May-10	3 / 4	63%	May-11	3	72%
Jun-10	4	61%	Jun-11	3	68%
Jul-10	4	67%	Jul-11	3	77%
Aug-10	4	69%	Aug-11	3	70%
Sep-10	4	71%	Sep-11	3	71%
Oct-10	4	77%			
Nov-10	4	61%			
Dec-10	4 / 3	58%

[cessfly]

Load factors mean nothing if the revenue management team are having to contend with cheaper fares from Easyjet and most passengers are buying the cheaper tickets. For example these routes need frequent business users flying business class, hence some routes with KLM have low LF but are high yielding and visa versa.

[steh]

Dec 13, 2011 18:46:12 GMT 1 @cessfly said:

That is drivel, all companies are anti-competition to an extent, but if you honestly believe Manchester have a say in where else KLM operate to then you are misguided. They started the route with the clear intention that the flights had operate successfully without impacting Manchesters traffic. If this has not happened then it would explain why KLM are pulling out if in fact they are.

I know I'm probably speaking with heart rather than head on that point. Given what's gone on lately with ryanair expanding there and making it clear they won't be expanding at Liverpool ('obviously one airport that wont see expansion is Liverpool' in O'Learys words to a regional newspaper), and Manchester's CEO stating "we've lost passengers to Liverpool and want them back" on a regional television report, I wouldnt put it past them to try targeting KLM. Like you say, a respected airline surely shouldnt be bringing themselves down to go along with those tactics.

However, if their passenger numbers and yields at Manchester have been affected by the route, so what, as long as KLM's losses there are offset by what it has gained from Liverpool. In all probability they havent, given the lack of business passengers from Liverpool its easiest just to drop the route knowing just about all the passengers effected will take up the option of flying from Manchester and they are not left with the physical costs of landing planes at Liverpool or paying a crew to nightstop.

[steh]

Dec 13, 2011 19:01:49 GMT 1 @cessfly said:

Load factors mean nothing if the revenue management team are having to contend with cheaper fares from Easyjet and most passengers are buying the cheaper tickets. For example these routes need frequent business users flying business class, hence some routes with KLM have low LF but are high yielding and visa versa.

The load factors though suggest that the route is popular and more than viable, especially given many of the passengers are starting their journeys elsewhere to come to Liverpool.

Maybe what KLM and/or the airport should do is take some time out from promoting the route in the press/radio and instead aggresively target local businesses, especially ones continuining to fly from Manchester to determine why they are doing so, and then putting right the wrongs of Liverpool to make sure they fly from here instead.

[cessfly]

Given what's gone on lately with ryanair expanding there and making it clear they won't be expanding at Liverpool ('obviously one airport that wont see expansion is Liverpool' in O'Learys words to a regional newspaper), and Manchester's CEO stating "we've lost passengers to Liverpool and want them back" on a regional television report, I wouldnt put it past them to try targeting KLM.

Thats just what they do though, compete with one another. I wouldn't allude to them in any way using underhand tactics. This sort of thing goes on all the time. Manchester was far too late in taking the growth of low-cost airlines seriously and has now adjusted its business model to focus on that market. They have every right to target KLM, but KLM themselves make the decision of where to serve and where not to and if they are dropping LPL then it is their decision not Manchesters.

However, if their passenger numbers and yields at Manchester have been affected by the route, so what, as long as KLM's losses there are offset by what it has gained from Liverpool.

You cannot spread yourself too thinly.

The load factors though suggest that the route is popular and more than viable, especially given many of the passengers are starting their journeys elsewhere to come to Liverpool.

I have worked in revenue for an airline before, and I can tell you it really is not as simple as that. As for the rest of your reply, the airline have had two years to start to establish themselves in Merseyside and attract those business passengers. They are very good at targeting the people they want to attract. If they do pull out then it iseither a breakdown in communication with the airports operator or they are not meeting the targets they have set for the route.

[samsalt]

I hope what I am reading is a load of tosh, as I have just made reservations for pax to travel LPL/YYC/LPL out 01/11/12 and return 08/11/12, my understaning of the situation is that KLM are satisfied with the performance of the route and are totally committed to Liverpoo.

[cessfly]

Hopefully you are correct samsalt.

[LPL]

If the above is correct, isnt it illegal to sell flights knowing they dont exist?