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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2020 22:23:00 GMT 1
A bit of help required please chaps. I thought I had taken this photo at Prestwick some time around 2000. Now, as we know, Cargolux keep recycling their registrations, so my question is, in the style of Blind Date,  Will it be Number 1, which is c/n 21650 which was named 'City of Luxembourg', (visible on the lower forward fuselage), but which my info says was only with them between 1979 and 87 - or will it be Number 2 - c/n 20887 which they bought in 1991, but which seemed to carry Atlas titles for much of its life before going to them permanently. Of course it's not number three because that was a -400, which anyway was not in Cargolux's hands until 2011. On the same day as I took this photo, the Ryanair/Hertz B737-200 arrived. Now according to the info I can find on the net, it had that colour scheme between 1999 and 2006, which seems unlikely. I am currently writing an article about Cargolux, which may have this photo as part of it, so I just want to be sure I put the right caption to it!  |
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Post by andyh on Sept 23, 2020 8:16:04 GMT 1
Garstonboy. Slightly confused as that does look like a -400 to me (I.e. nr 3?) given the winglets?
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Post by woody66 on Sept 23, 2020 12:32:16 GMT 1
Garstonboy. Planespotters has LX-DCV as used three times for c/n 21650 from 01/1997 to 09/1987, c/n 20887 from 04/1995 to 09/1995 this is the only one to carry City of Luxembourg on it and c/n 24619 from 05/2011 to 03/2016. Is it possible that it is LX-OCV c/n 29731 as this was in use from 07/1999 until 06/2018 this this named City of Differdange until it went to Cargolux Italia in 2015. The coat of arms for Differdange next to the name is very similar to that in your photo, it being solid blue with a standing gold lion. The coat of arms for the city of Luxembourg is blue and whit horizontal stripes with a standing red lion in the middle. Looking at some close ups on the web of the names. The city name appears above a line which says Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. www.flickr.com/photos/airlines470/6969847128/I hope this helps rather than confuses the issue more for you. Colin |
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Post by viscount on Sept 23, 2020 13:23:47 GMT 1
I've repeated much of the research that 'Garstonboy' appears to have covered. However made an initial mistake of looking at the photo and researching LX-OCV. I'll come back to that.
Firstly, dating the period that Ryanair flew EI-CJC in a 'Hertz' bill-board scheme. Ryanair 's first Boeing 737-204, EI-CJC entered service 3/94 all white with blue tail and small titles. The scheme was widely condemned and subsequent aircraft had the now familiar blue underside. EI-CJC also gained the blue underside by September 1994. The first Ryanair 'billboard' was 'Jaguar' in 12/96, most of their billboards being created during 1997 and into 1998. EI-CJC, still in 'Hertz' scheme left the Ryanair fleet mid November 2005 and departed for Peru. So, if the memory is correct, that places the photo between 1997 and end of 2005.
So from my 'paper' sources (Jet Airliner Production List: Boeing Part 2, TAHS 2012) a look at the candidates:
(1) 21650/354 Boeing 747-2RF As LX-DCV from new to Cargolux, del 31.1.79 and named "City of Luxembourg", sold 9/87 to Flying Tiger. Finished its flying days as G-MKGA 8/2011 stored at Kemble (no winglets). Rule this one out (name fits, but Ryanair 97-05 and likely 2000 certainly don't).
(2) 20887/245 Boeing 747-228F New to Air France 10/74 F-BPVO. Sold as LX-DCV to Cargolux 6/91. With Cargolux 6/91-12/92 (then El Al), 6/93-7/94 (Atlas Air), 4/95-9/95 (then back to Atlas Air). Sold to Atlas Air 8/96 as N809MC. Leased by Cargolux from Atlas Air as N809MC 8/96 to 8/99. Again dates are before the memory clues (so difficult to rule this one in)
(3) 24619/793 Boeing 747-4B5 Combi New to Korean Air Cargo 6/90 HL7480. Converted to a 747-4B5(BCF) first half 2011. To Cargolux as LX-DCV 5/11 (dates are long after the memory clues, but is a winglet fitted a/c)
Usually when attempting to match a picture and memory dates, there is usually an overlap - not so here. So back to my initial 'mistaken identity':
(4) 21575//358 Boeing 747-283B Combi New to SAS SE-DFZ 3/79. Sold, became LX-OCV with GPA Group 6/88, Lionair of Luxembourg leased 7/88 and immediate sub-lease to Garuda Indonesian, then back to GPA Group 9/88 and re-regd EI-BWF. Dead end, false trail.
(5) 29731/1222 Boeing 747-4R7F(SCD) Delivered from new as LX-OCV to Cargolux 7/99 and named 5/00 "City of Differdange" (not a spellchecker aberration, but a small city SW of Luxembourg City, right on the French border - and yes, I had to look that up in an Atlas!). This does fit the memory date clues and has a fleet name of a similar number of letters.
So, it is back to Barry to look at the original again. Is it LX-DCV "City of Luxembourg" that doesn't really fit the dating clues, or LX-OCV "City of Differdange" that does match the 'circa 2000' and has winglets? In 2000 LX-FCV wore the "City of Luxembourg" name (a/c with Cargolux 11/93-9/09). Also Barry, was your memory of the 'Hertz' Ryanair due to it being new 1997/1998, or arriving at Prestwick Nov 2005 for disposal (trees are a bit green for November though)?
From a 'spotters' recognition viewpoint there is little to go on the photo. It certainly does have the winglets of the series 400 and appears to have the fuselage stretch. The series 400 freighter retained the forward fuselage shape of the series 200 without the upper floor stretch of the -300 and -400. It is difficult to make out the hinged nose door, or the presence of a SCD (side cargo door) on the image. The big question, to which I've not yet located an answer is, were any Boeing 747-200Fs ever fitted with winglets as an in-service customer modification?
Spent some time compiling this reply, during which time 'Woody 66', using different line of enquiry has come to the same conclusion.
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Post by woody66 on Sept 23, 2020 13:59:07 GMT 1
Having looked at the original Garstonboy photo I would have to say it is LX-OCV as non of those registered LX-DCV used Rolls Royce engines which in the picture look more like RB211's than the Pratt & Whitney JT9D and PW4056 or GE CF6 that are listed as the powerplant for those registered LX-DCV. I could be wrong though.
Colin
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 21:59:54 GMT 1
Having looked at the original Garstonboy photo I would have to say it is LX-OCV as non of those registered LX-DCV used Rolls Royce engines which in the picture look more like RB211's than the Pratt & Whitney JT9D and PW4056 or GE CF6 that are listed as the powerplant for those registered LX-DCV. I could be wrong though. Colin Well spotted woody! It never occurred to me that it could be LX-OCV, but it ticks all the boxes. Firstly, I believe that the emblem is that of Differdange - a golden lion on a blue background, and even with the letters seriously pixelated when you magnify it, the legend on the nose looks more like Differdange than anything else. The timeline definitely fits with my recollection, too. Surprised that there are no Rolls-Royce logos on the engines, but you're right about the shape. I have a second photo of the 747 with a poor background, and after close examination, I can just about make out the '747-400' written near the tail. So I think the detective work is complete and it is in fact LX- OCV. The big question, to which I've not yet located an answer is, were any Boeing 747-200Fs ever fitted with winglets as an in-service customer modification? Given Cargolux's propensity for altering the colours (and sometimes the shape) of their aircraft, I wondered about this, too. I knew a guy, actually an ex alumni from school, whose last flying job was with Cargolux, but sadly he's no longer with us, or he would have been able to tell me immediately! The Ryanair/Hertz aircraft was on a scheduled service and in fact I flew to Dublin on it. I took the photo before Ryanair had 25-minute turnarounds, in about August or September (I think), so that ties up as well.  As an aside, I once had to visit the NSPA (Nato Support and Procurement Agency) in Luxembourg, an enormous warehouse complex, which does what it says on the tin. I now remember that I drove through Differdange on my way back to Reims and eventually Paris, and I was surprised to see an enormous steel mill there. I always thought the main business of Luxembourg was banking and agriculture. Oh! And a radio station - for the older ones amongst us Many thanks for your help guys, I think we've sorted that successfully! |
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Post by northbynorthwest on Sept 23, 2020 23:59:12 GMT 1
The big question, to which I've not yet located an answer is, were any Boeing 747-200Fs ever fitted with winglets as an in-service customer modification? Garstonboy, there was talk about one of the the maintenance organizations on the west coast working on an STC for the 747-200F for blended winglets, as opposed to the 747-400 winglets. (An STC is an FAA approved Supplemental Type Certificate, whereby the FAA allows alterations to the original design. Without it, you will get absolutely nowhere.) I was still in Minneapolis with Northwest at the time, and a good friend who was a 747-200 captain at the time told me about it. He thought that the aircraft did fly, but the STC was no pursued. I never remember seeing anything in the aviation press about such a beast, which I would have thought would have been the case if it did in fact fly. Also, never heard anything in the grapevine at work either. We flew 16 -200 freighters at the time, so Northwest must have been approached about this, and my department would have been involved in any performance number crunching for this. This must have been the mid to late '90's, when the 747-400 was taking over from the -200 in the passenger role. [/quote] |
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Post by viscount on Sept 24, 2020 9:41:16 GMT 1
The date of 'around 2000' is further supported by the 'Hertz' Ryanair photo. I have located two shots of mine of this aircraft, one dated 4/2001 is with the original nacelle shapes (as in the photo posted), the other 3/2003 with the extended (so called) 'hush' kit modification.
'Garstonboy's' photo is clearly without the engine nacelle modification so is in the early part of its service with Ryanair.
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Post by woody66 on Sept 24, 2020 10:48:52 GMT 1
This link shows the 747-200 mentioned by northbynorthwest. www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1450449Interesting info at the bottom of the photos, pure coincidence regarding this threads title. As for any other 200F versions I couldn't find any that had winglets. Colin |
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Post by viscount on Sept 24, 2020 12:43:22 GMT 1
Fascinating the way the topic of Boeing 747-200 with winglet has come full circle with the former LX-DCV being the test airframe, and one known not to have winglets at the end of its flying years. That photo and information on why winglets on Boeing 747-200 did not became an option is a good find.
The upshot for aircraft recognition is that in service Boeing 747-200Fs did not have winglets, so those 747Fs with Boeing 747-400 style winglets are indeed Boeing 747-400s. If I'd known that at the start of this thread, it would be somewhat shorter!
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Post by northbynorthwest on Sept 24, 2020 18:20:26 GMT 1
This link shows the 747-200 mentioned by northbynorthwest. www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1450449Interesting info at the bottom of the photos, pure coincidence regarding this threads title. As for any other 200F versions I couldn't find any that had winglets. Colin What a fascinating thread. Woody, thanks for the link. I am going to forward it to my friend; he flew the 747-200 pax and freight before moving to the 747-400, then retired off the A350. He will appreciate this information. So it did happen! Those winglets look enormous, similar to the 767-300ER winglets. Lots of good reasons for the winglets modification not proceeding within that airliners.net link if you read down beyond the pictures. I know that for Northwest it would not have been beneficial because they had developed a very successful hub in Anchorage. Flights inbound from Tokyo, Osaka, Seoul, Shanghai and Hong Kong that would interconnect in Anchorage and allow cargo to head to several US destinations, and vice versa. They had no need for these winglets, which may have allowed for nonstop flights from Japan to the US westcoast airports without cutting payload. Probably 75-80% of the freight across the North Pacific is heading to the USA, the flights back to Asia would carry some freight, but were in essence almost positioning flights. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 8:21:49 GMT 1
This link shows the 747-200 mentioned by northbynorthwest. www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1450449Interesting info at the bottom of the photos, pure coincidence regarding this threads title. As for any other 200F versions I couldn't find any that had winglets. Colin That's a hell of a set of winglets! |
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Will it be Number 1, which is c/n 21650 which was named 'City of Luxembourg', (visible on the lower forward fuselage), but which my info says was only with them between 1979 and 87 - or will it be Number 2 - c/n 20887 which they bought in 1991, but which seemed to carry Atlas titles for much of its life before going to them permanently. Of course it's not number three because that was a -400, which anyway was not in Cargolux's hands until 2011. On the same day as I took this photo, the Ryanair/Hertz B737-200 arrived. Now according to the info I can find on the net, it had that colour scheme between 1999 and 2006, which seems unlikely. 
