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Post by viscount on Oct 23, 2012 23:04:27 GMT 1
For some years, since the late 70s, I would guess, I've had an envelope of tiny 3" x 2" prints, many faded sepia, which were given to me by Gill Hayes a gardener and groundsman. He had served in North Africa with the British Army in WW2. Looking at the photos again, I realise that the 6 of aircraft are clearly North Africa (or just maybe Sicily) in WW2, so are a venerable 70 years old. While I know they will be looked at here, I would like suggestions as to any forum/websites specialising in WW2 North African theatre photos or WW2 German aircraft, where the images would be really appreciated. I know little of WW2 Luftwaffe markings etc. Three different Messerschmidt Bf.109s    A much stripped Junkers Ju-87 Stuka  Despite missing the nose engine, this is a tri-motor Junkers Ju-52  Possibly the most interesting image is of a Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV Z9550 (built by Avro circa 1940), which has clearly had a landing mishap on flooded ground.  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The majority of the photos in the collection are of the British Army in Iraq, most likely in 1919. Original images that are some 93 years old! Only one is of an aircraft, the others are something of a photo record of a field gun crew on detachment and manouvers, with their equipment. Again, I would just love to get these photos to a forum or web-site where they would be most appreciated. Any suggestions would be welcome. Unfortunately there are no clues that I can pick out of the Unit the gun crew are from. A selection here from a great set of images, of which many have responded well to digital manipulation - a time and people long past. H2277 is an Avro 504K produced by A.V.Roe Co Ltd Manchester (and inscribed as such on the rear fuselage), built circa 1918.           |
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Post by johnoakes on Oct 24, 2012 8:30:07 GMT 1
Fabulous--please don't let anything happen to those. Hard to believe in these days of national self depreciation--PC--that we once bred these giants. Reminds me of TE Lawrence's book 7 pillars of wisdom and the Manchester camel corps.LOL  |
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Post by ian531 on Oct 24, 2012 17:18:01 GMT 1
What a great set of pictures - thanks for posting.
Have you tried to e-mail the IWM for an organisation that might want to see the image?
Ian
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Post by acklington on Oct 26, 2012 11:05:38 GMT 1
I can give a bit of info on the Luftwaffe images, although I'm no Luftwaffe expert. The "Luftwaffe Data Book" came in handy for this!
The three Bf109s are 'F' versions, and all three carry the 'Mediterrainean Theatre' white identification bands and wing tips (the noses would have had white as well). The first one is in proper desert camouflage of sand over mid-blue, as still carried to this day by "Black 6" in the RAF Museum. The other two appear to be in 'European' camouflage, with added sand coloured areas.
The first Bf109F has the Gruppe Adjudant chevron, possibly in yellow outlined in black. The absence of any other Gruppe markings is indicative of I Gruppe (as the first gruppe was always identified by no markings). Unfortunately the actual Jaggeschwader (fighter unit) badge is absent, as it was probably on the cowling which has been removed. But JG 27 is a possible candidate, as the other markings closely match their style.
The next Bf109F looks like 'Red 2', and the vertical bar indicates III Gruppe, with the bar also in red, outlined black.
The third Bf109F looks like 'Yellow 9', also of III Gruppe, and the vertical bar is also yellow, outlined black.
The Ju87 'Stuka' carried the unit code 'S7' of Sturzkampfgeschwader I, and the letter 'P' indicates the 6th Staffel. The letter 'J' is the individual aircraft letter. Again, white theatre identification markings are carried.
The Ju52 carries 'H4' of Luftlandgeschwader I, and the final 'A' indicates the Geschwader Stab (HQ unit?). The other 'A' is the aircraft individual letter. This unit was not (it appears) based in North Africa, so it may have been on a supply mission when it was lost - landing accident judging by the u/c and wing-tip damage - then stripped for spares. The white fuselage band indicates that it was active in the Mediterranian theatre.
So these photos were almost certainly taken in North Africa, probably after the German defeat there. This would place the date in 1943.
A proper Luftwaffe expert could probably take the details much further, and give pilots, locations, and units!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 12:29:09 GMT 1
What a fascinating set of images! Reminds me of TE Lawrence's book 7 pillars of wisdom And a fascinating book, an inspiration to John Nagel's much more recent definitive work on counter insurgency "Learning to eat soup with a knife". GC |
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Post by viscount on Oct 26, 2012 14:39:24 GMT 1
Thanks Acklington. Interesting detail, that adds considerably to my appreciation of the photos. WW2 Luftwaffe markings is certainly a big 'hole' in my aviation knowledge, thank you for the research and information.
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Post by johnoakes on Oct 27, 2012 8:45:01 GMT 1
Will read that one --do you have a copy I could borrow?Bit difficult to get to a lending library in France.LOL
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Post by viscount on Oct 27, 2012 9:44:57 GMT 1
A dig around Google and Wikipedia finds that the half-track tractor depicted in the 1919 photos is an American built Holt 15 ton Artillery Tractor, produced by the Holt Caterpillar Co of Stockton, California (sorry John, it is not British engineering). On merger with its main rival in 1925 Holt became the Caterpillar Tractor Co and is still today a worldwide brand producing specialist heavy moving equipment.
The Holt 15 ton Artillery Tractor was developed from a lighter model, and was evaluated by the Army (not sure if US or British) in the early months of 1917 and 232 had been delivered to Europe before the Armistice. Initial production had a single forward wheel, later production being full track-laying vehicles. The 15 ton designation being the vehicle's weight! Speed was around 2 to 3 mph. The tractors took the place of teams of horses in pulling artillery and supplies.
The artillery piece appears to match photos of the BL 6" Howitzer, which weighed in at 26 cwt - 1.3 ton.
I've also been reading-up on WWI in Mespotania (Iraq), the British there were fighting the Ottoman Empire (Turkey). An armistice in October 1918 brought an end to the fighting, with the British ocupying and controlling much of what is today Iraq. The governing of Iraq though, passed from one occupation power to another. Having supported the British against the Ottoman Empire, the Iraq people found themselves under British rule. This led to an uprising in 1920, crushed mainly by RAF airpower. One of the poorer quality prints in the collection is titled 'Turk Prisoners', so is consistent with the date of 1918/1919.
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Post by acklington on Oct 27, 2012 11:29:15 GMT 1
I've been doing a bit more research on the Luftwaffe photos.
The Ju87 Stuka is a 'D' model; i.e. Ju87D.
The three Bf109Fs are almost certainly from JG27, which was one of the more famous German fighter units throughout the War. Their pilots included many famous Aces, including Marseille, who shot down 17 British planes in one day in North Africa - mainly P-40 Tomahawks. He was killed in a flying accident later in North Africa.
Which brings me to the Bf109F photo that intrigues me most - number two - showing 'Red 2'. [NB the Luftwaffe Staffel colours were only ever White, Yellow, Red, and Blue; so assuming that this Bf109F is not 'Blue 2', then it should identify the Staffel within JG27.]
As can be seen, the souvenir hunters have been at work, hacking out the tail Swastika on two of the Bf109Fs. But also, on 'Red 2' the rudder has been stripped of fabric. At first glance this looks like battle or storm damage, but there is another possible explanation - the rudder was where Luftwaffe Aces marked their 'kills', in small vertical bars recording victim and date. The amount of fabric removed from 'Red 2' is consistent with a high-scoring 'Ace', possibly showing up to 30 or 40 kill markings. So either the rudder fabric was stripped by a souvenir hunter, or equally possible, by the Luftwaffe pilot/ground crew before they abandoned the airfield.
The 'Aces' changed aircraft frequently, due to damage, or obtaining a newer aircraft. The kill markings would then be re-applied to the new aircraft. The rudder fabric from the previous aircraft would help in doing this, as well as being a treasured relic in its own right.
So if this theory is correct, then 'Red 2' of III Gruppe/JG27 should be identifiable as having been used by a significant Ace, and may have accounted for a significant number of his Kills in North Africa.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2012 17:50:17 GMT 1
I got a little interested in this discussion and thought I'd delve into it a little more. Whilst doing so I came across this photo of three Bf109's in flight, one of which has similar group markings to yellow 9. Although the yellow vertical bar is in a slightly different position I was wondering if it could be the same aircraft or a replacement aircraft with the same pilot piloting it? www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW14/Me109-G6-83af+s.jpg |
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Post by acklington on Oct 28, 2012 10:11:12 GMT 1
Interesting photo link ste-t, and I've seen that photo before - they were escorting a high ranking officer and the photo is taken from his transport over the Med in 1943.
However, they are later model Bf109Gs, identifiable by the blisters over the top cowling guns. The second one is a tropical version, with the longer filter on the oil cooler.
But you are correct that they are also from III/JG27, so they are probably later replacement aircraft with the unit.
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