Canadair Sabres F-86E/RAF F4s

[mb]

This is a weird one.OK,I have had amongst my" precious things" 2 Sabre Canadair manufacturers plates liberated by me in the late 50s/early 60s from 2 RAF Sabre fuselage hulks on a low loader at Two Mills. I have been trying for ages to match up the details on the plates with the RAF serial numbers of the full a/c.The first one says Model F-86E ,serial 23592, contract no. 1569.

The second says Model F-86E,serial 23628,contract no.1609

Does anyone have any info ( or can steer me to an appropriate website-I have tried everything but no luck) as to how to correlate, presumably, these serial numbers with RAF serials.Or maybe they have no connection at all and the serials quoted on the plates do not relate at all to in service a/c.Any help appreciated.

[bobbystreet57]

www.demobbed.org.uk/aircraft.php
this may help

[digit]

Jun 15, 2014 20:31:09 GMT 1 mb said:

This is a weird one.OK,I have had amongst my" precious things" 2 Sabre Canadair manufacturers plates liberated by me in the late 50s/early 60s from 2 RAF Sabre fuselage hulks on a low loader at Two Mills. I have been trying for ages to match up the details on the plates with the RAF serial numbers of the full a/c.The first one says Model F-86E ,serial 23592, contract no. 1569.

The second says Model F-86E,serial 23628,contract no.1609

Does anyone have any info ( or can steer me to an appropriate website-I have tried everything but no luck) as to how to correlate, presumably, these serial numbers with RAF serials.Or maybe they have no connection at all and the serials quoted on the plates do not relate at all to in service a/c.Any help appreciated.

Don't know if this will help or muddy the waters further!

Both serials tie up as RCAF Sabres

23592 is con no. 1382

23628 is con no. 1418

The RAF F1/F2s and F4's were all in the con no. range 353 to 790 (serials XB530 to XD129).

Info from AvDb, British Military Aircraft Serials 1911-1971 (Ian Allan) and Modern Combat Aircraft 4: F86 Sabre (Ian Allan).

Really interested to see if anyone can shed some light on this?

GC

[acklington]

As this scrapyard photo (from Lasham, 1970) shows, the ex-RAF Canadian built Sabres were refurbished for possible re-sale, and while they stayed in RAF/NATO standard colours, they were marked with their original Canadair serial number on the tail.



Many were exported, eg to Yugoslavia, but some never made it, and were eventually scrapped, possibly at Prestwick? The remains were then collected by various scrap merchants, and Staravia at Lasham took at least a dozen, if not more.

[mb]

Thanks so far.Confusing innit? Just out of interest,I also " acquired" 3 machine gun port rubber plugs from one side of the fuselage and the interesting thing is that they are all different sizes,large ,medium and small.Plus a cockpit red annunciator light( and lead) from Grimes Mfg Co,Urbana,Ohio

[Biggles]

Did you just confess to an historic theft

[mb]

Yes.Well,actually the driver said we could grab whatever we could while he had a cup of tea.And also getting more home on our pushbikes wouldn't be easy

[philglt]

Just to add something to this thread....On 21/08/64 I went with some friends to a scrapyard in Lowton, having been told of scrap aircraft there.We logged 15 RCAF F-86Es there, all in the 23000 serials.They were :23378,383,386,421,448,545,548,554,597,599,717,733,736,765 and 795.Your two were not amongst them.We also logged a Vampire XE953, a Gannet WN354 and an Anson VP953.

An ejection seat plackard was on the wall behind my toilet for several years

Phil

[Biggles]

I bet there wasn`t a high viz jacket in sight. Those where the days.

[philglt]

I don't remember seeing anyone at all.....an interesting place....wish I had a camera with me!

Phil

[mb]

That's very interesting.Were they actual RCAF a/c? If so ,would they have been their in-service serial numbers.I have always assumed that " my " a/c were RAF but now I am beginning to wonder. Presumably,if they were RCAF a/c they would have been from the North Luffenham Wg?

If you want to know anything about your " nuclear vital actions" ask me anything as the official pamphlet was on the bottom of our bog door for years.It may sound daft ( but it's not) when the RAF really wanted people to read and absorb " stuff " that was the place to put it.Plenty of opportunity to study and it stuck. Yes,I know it's hard to believe that some in Speke actually had doors on't bog in those days.Or even a po.


Now ,what am I bid for a genuine nut of one of Rudolf Hess' Me110's engines?

[philglt]

I can't say I remember much of the visit after all these years, but we must have read off the serials etc. from the airframes as we saw them in the yard.There wouldn't have been access to other information in those days.

Phil

[acklington]

Jun 18, 2014 21:01:50 GMT 1 mb said:

That's very interesting.Were they actual RCAF a/c? If so ,would they have been their in-service serial numbers.I have always assumed that " my " a/c were RAF but now I am beginning to wonder. Presumably,if they were RCAF a/c they would have been from the North Luffenham Wg?

Some of the Sabre bits in the Lasham scrapyard certainly were ex-RCAF, although most of the easily identifiable sections had already been scrapped by the time I got there.

But lying on the ground was a mangled rudder, which I noted was painted in a red & yellow "fire & brimstone" type of pattern. This would mean it was from 439 Sqdn RCAF, one of the North Luffenham Wing squadrons.

Regarding 'your' serials, I've just been looking at the book "Sabre in RAF service" by Duncan Curtiss, Sutton Publishing 2005. This book shows that all of the RAF Sabres had RCAF serial numbers in the "19xxx" range. However the later batches also included examples that originally had been allocated USAF serials, prior to acquiring Canadian serials. Presumably indicating American funding under the Mutal Aid Programme. These USAF serials were all year 52 allocations, which when (and if) painted on an aircraft might be displayed as (e.g.) 20208 (52-10208 in full).

However, to just make matters worse, none of the USAF serial allocations are anywhere close to 'your' serial numbers 23592, and 23628.

The only things that can be made to remotely fit your serial numbers, are to take the 'last three' of the RAF serial, and add infront a '2' (for 1952) and a '3' (for who knows what?). So 23592 would be ex-XB706, ex-RCAF serial 19592, and 23628 would be ex-XB754, ex-RCAF serial 19628. [Note; thank goodness this scenario doesn't fall within the RAF serial batches that were re-numbered from XB to XD!].

To test my theory one step further, I've also dug out my Merseyside Society of Aviation Enthusiasts publication "USAF Serials 1946-1969", published July 1969. This was to see if any other year 1952 USAF allocations matched 23592, or 23628, but none do.

So at that point, I'm stumped, other than suggesting (as above) XB706 and XB754.

Finally, there is a useful footnote in the MSAE publication; as follows "...these were RCAF serials allotted to production of the Canadair CL-13 Sabre Mk.4. The majority of this batch were allotted to the RAF under the Mutual Defence Assistance Programme (MDAP), paid for out of U.S. funds, as Sabre F.1 and F.4. On the phasing out of Sabres by June 1956 most returned from Germany and Linton-on-Ouse. The aircraft were overhauled by civilian contractors, notably at Ringway and Stansted, but also at Speke and Yeovilton. After refurbishment the RCAF serial was painted in white on the fin over RAF style camouflage. Standard USAF insignia was applied to the fuselage togther with USAF-type 'Buzz-numbers', using the F-86 letters 'FU' and the last three of the RCAF serial. ........ The aircraft were delivered to Naples for further use by the Italian Air Force, 180 being received. Yugoslavia was also the recipient of 122 ex-RAF Sabres."

None of this says what happened to the ex-RCAF Sabres from North Luffenham, and there were also the ex-RAF Sabres that never got exported, and were eventually scrapped.
S

[mb]

Thanks again for all your interest.It gets more and more confusing.It might well be that the "serial number" on the manufacturer plates have nothing to do with actual allocated service a/c serial numbers and are a company thing.I wonder if Bombardier would have any info? That then begs the question where were the RAF a/c painted and who decided which airframe got what RAF serial number.The thick plottens.

[viscount]

Been monitoring this thread, but only now able to access my references on the matter.

Numbers 23592 (c/n.1382) and 23628 (C/no.1418) are both listed on the internet as RCAF Sabre 4 serials eg the later one is on: www.canadianwings.com/Aircraft/Database/listpage.php?page=860 But, without details as to where they operated, this information (as also identified by 'Digit' in an early post of this thread) on its own is of little use. However, the fact that 23592 and 23628 are both stated to be RCAF Sabre registrations and the numbers 23592 and 23628 appear on Sabre construction/identity plates seems too much of a co-incidence to ignore. Add-in the fact that a number of RCAF Sabres were scrapped in Britain and all we have not yet got, is the proof that these two particular aircraft served in Europe and ended their days in British scrap-yards.

The 6 part 'investigation' by Alan Schoefield into Sabres that passed through Ringway, Hooton and Speke in the mid 50s, published in "Rapide" magazine a couple of years ago, are mostly 19*** numbers, with only a few getting close to 235** sequence, and those were Sabre 6s. That does not mean that we can dismiss 23592 and 23628 as RCAF aircraft in Europe, only that they did not pass through Airwork for disposal to other Air Arms.

From the same source (MAS 'USAF Serials 1946-1977') as 'Acklington' used, I note that 23628 (52-3628) is a US built F-86D for the USAF, with the c/no looking completely different being something around number 190-31, so even the format is different for the US built machines. 23592 (52-3592) serial was never used, being towards the end of a cancelled contract block. This then, is certainly a 'red herring' line of thought.

The MSAE, then MAS, 'Wrecks and Relics' series do not in the 1961 or 1963 editions record the contents of scrap yards, so that line of thought is also a dead-end.

MB, I personally am fairly certain that they are plates off Canadian built aircraft that served with the RCAF in Europe, not Canadian built and supplied to the RAF machines. However currently lack any proof to back-up such a statement. The number on the plate indeed being the RCAF serial.