Domestic links from LPL - Trying for more routes?

[neb]

I was wondering if anyone has any ideas as to how to go about running a petition or something similar to demonstrate public interest in more domestic routes in airlines operating more domestics out of JLA.

As we know, Merseyside has a sizeable population (~1.4m people) and the airport is (sort of) well connected to much of it through Merseyrail, and there is also a sizeable population in Runcorn and Warrington which are also very near the airport, but Liverpool has far fewer domestic links than places such as Manchester or Birmingham, and wondered if there have been previous attempts to attract more domestic services here, or any ideas on how we could?

Just some pie in the sky thinking on some routes which might be able to attract viable traffic.

* LHR or LGW: Feeder traffic to/from LHR might make either or these a more viable route than LCY was.

* Glasgow: Major city, no direct train services from Liverpool.

* Edinburgh: Same situation as with Glasgow.

* Newquay and/or Plymouth: Strong potential for tourist traffic, perhaps with a basic year round service but with additional peak season flights in summer. Plymouth is not served directly from Manchester (either stop off en-route giving 2 hr flight time, or change of plane)

[harbourcotter]

Neb, you are correct in that Merseyside has the worst rail connections of any similar sized city in Europe and needs better air links.

This is because of Government Policy (All of the Political Parties) to make Manchester the 'Capital' of the north west. Therefore Liverpool was deliberately omitted from the majority of the franchises. That meant in the recent few years direct trains have been transferred to manchester from liverpool. To compound matters they have been extended to manchester airport, trundling along empty for the most part of that section.

So yes, there is a demand for links to most major cities over 200 miles. I dont think London is a goer because that does have reasonable rail links and worldwide connections are now available via klm. ba - your loss.

Glasgow, Edinburgh and Southampton I think would be best suited. I Know Flybe tried, to be honest it was a good product and if flown a minimum of twice daily would work, but flybe moved to manchester and believes that lpl would dilute the market. I dont agree for such short sectors. I dont know of another airline which would undertake it unfortunately with the possible exception of eastern, but that would be normal cost flights, so numbers would not be as great. Guernsey I believe would also be a money spinner for flybe on a once daily service.

Newcastle and Norwich could also be served by eastern. Plymouth is a possibility - but i doubt airsouthwest would try it simply because of manchester.

[jake3]

Flybe don't seem to be too concerned with diluting the market on the belfast route. The routes to edinburgh and glassgow always seemed well used when I worked there despite the timing of the edinburgh flight.

Had they (flybe) stuck at it at LPL I think those routes would have been a sucess

[baldyman26]

Maybe so but the point is they didn't stick it out at LPL...Why ?? is it because having an established base at Manchester is more worth while money wise, or it looks better on the flybe CV to have more routes out of Manchester. I say this all the time, if it was worth while for any airline to set up at LPL they would have. So maybe we should ask what it is that stops airlines coming here. We have the facilities, we have a half decent terminal, or will do when the building works finish. So is it costs, or image, or simply the fact there is no need to come here purely because of manchester being so close..(or is it the toilets )

[cambrian5619]

I suspect that it is a lot to do with the financial deals re charges etc that the Companies get from the Airports as well as the services available at the Airport (including toilets).

Manchester wanted Flybe to fill the hole left by British Airways moving out and must have made it worth their while to ditch Liverpool which they never gave a fair chance on the Edinburgh, Glasgow, Exeter and Southampton routes started and dropped.

[jake3]

Baldyman26 I think you will find that they (FlyBe) pulled out of LPL when they took over BA connect at Manchester. Ready made routes and customer base rather than spend the time building a base at LPL was the eaiser option.
The argument that MAN is only up the road has'nt stopped KLM taking on EASY at LPL while maintaing their service at Manchester, were they also compete with other airlines. Flybe took on Easy on the belfast route and EZY now fly the IOM route.

Also I think that the second base for EZY was at LPL I think they felt it worthwhile to set up here and saw it's potential as have Ryanair.

[neb]

Jake, I agree about Manchester being close not being so much of an issue. Although it's not far, the rail links between Manchester (airport) and Merseyside area are slow, and not very frequent. Getting national express is actually faster than the train(!), but their service is patchy (gaps of 2 hours plus) and some services are far slower than others, or need changes en-route. Then Manchester itself is a much larger and slower airport to get through, so in effect going via Manchester can easily add an hour or more to the overall journey when everything is factored in.

I think the real problem is historical perceptions have been that Liverpool is for charter and holiday flights, and Manchester for business, and both the travelling public and airline decision makers have, to some degree, held on to that view. LJLA really could benefit by making more of the convenience factor in their marketing, and perhaps adopting the Southampton/London City "turn up and fly" fast check in/security approach.

[midland500]

neb good points on domestic traffic from Liverpool but apart from the routes already served I would not think any others are viable except possibly Newquay. Why? IMO domestic traffic has been declining for a good few years, and the amount of passengers carried from say MAN or leeds to Glasgow and Edinburgh has almost halved and is still declining. Also the improvement in the train to central London has meant that LHR would only be needed for connecting traffic and the cost associated with flying into LHR is making bmi and BA reduce their domestic networks. As for LGW connecting traffic this is much reduced from a few years ago as flights have transferred to LHR and easyjet have taken a lot of the available slots.

So for the future the only viable routes I would think are the places were ground transport is slow i.e ABZ,SOU which we already have and maybe something to the southwest (Newquay)which would be ideal say for easyjet

[mickey]

Just to add my tuppence worth...

London is a non-starter. The only possible option would be a single daily EZY to LGW, though slot control down there would make it unlikely.

Similarly, the Scottish capitals are out as there's not enough custom willing to pay air fares for the route. I know people like to whinge about it but the train connections are not actually all that bad, and are actually (dare I say it!) better than they used to be, with a clockface timetable and connection every hour at Wigan making travel much more flexible (and reliable) than the old one or two direct trains a day.

The south-west is an option, however. I would suggest Exeter rather than Newquay, but both could work.

Guernsey would work imo, though only probably once or twice a week. Manston is possible, if someone could demonstrate a market for it.

Otherwise it's the 'extremes' of Aberdeen and Southampton - which, of course, we've got already.

I doubt the airport is avoiding promoting new connections; far more likely is that there is simply no commercial need for them. Don't forget either the environmental agenda that's become big news recently - I'm only playing devil's advocate here but perhaps we're right to limit flying to further and harder-to-get-to places (e.g. separated by sea).

[harbourcotter]

Mickey,

As a regular traveller across the u.k, you are sort of half right.

However you appear to be thinking more of an irregular traveller,rather than from a business perspective.

London, you are right, is unlikely to work.

Guernsey. You would be surprised at the business and football traffic between the two, let alone summer holiday makers.
Daily on a small turboprop or 3/4 weekly on 737/airbus

Newquay. No chance. Limited summer only holiday traffic, mainly one way. not enough to support any service. Little/No business.

Exeter. Possibly due to leisure/business/military traffic to Plymouth mainly, particularly as direct trains have now stopped.

Glasgow/Edinburgh. Err, the train services are much worse than a few years ago. I know, I travel there every fortnight. Car every time now, however if there were direct flights -- There were 4/5 trains to each destination direct daily. Why make do with the overcrowded cattle 'bus type train' to wigan, you can only connect to slow trains to scotland. The fast trains only leave from preston. Even so, many connections are slower. For the business man to put up with this is unacceptable. Flybe proved there is demand for double daily. By the way, because Liverpool is no longer on the 'main line' you will find prices from liverpool to Scotland, double that of from manchester.

Additionally, both LPL and the city are losing out on business/leisure I spoke to Scottish colleagues why they always go to Manchester for leisure instead of Liverpool. The response 'Love to, but you cant get to liverpool easily as theres hassle and additional cost, its not worth it'

Finally Norwich
Curiously one of the few long distance rail routes still left from Liverpool but its a long drive and the train journey is very slow. A double daily Eastern route would be ideal, although once daily may be a goer. Again there are good opportunities for flybe to undertake a Belfast/Liverpool/Norwich or IOM/Liverpool/Norwich to generate more trade.

[john1958]

London, now it would have to be LGW as slots are rarer than hens teeth at LHR, I have family who would use it rather than the 3/4 hour drive up here, or even flying to MAN then having to wait for one of us to collect them from there. EZY used to fly LTN-LPL-LTN, but they stopped some years ago.

I'm sure if either EZY or RYR were to dip thier toe in the water of LPL to darn sarff, they could be pleasantly surprised!!!!!

John

[mickey]

Feb 18, 2011 17:33:03 GMT 1 harbourcotter said:

Glasgow/Edinburgh. Err, the train services are much worse than a few years ago. I know, I travel there every fortnight. Car every time now, however if there were direct flights -- There were 4/5 trains to each destination direct daily. Why make do with the overcrowded cattle 'bus type train' to wigan, you can only connect to slow trains to scotland. The fast trains only leave from preston.

Admittedly I do it monthly rather than fortnightly, but I don't agree with this. If you get the faster Blackpool train to Wigan rather than the stopper it's usually a 15x rather than a 14x (the 'bus' train), and of the Virgin connections to Scotland (presumably this is what you mean by 'fast' train?) only one northbound and two southbound don't call at Wigan - all the rest call at both Wigan and Preston. Cheaper fares are available from Manchester but only on the direct Transpennine Express services, which are slower and much less comfortable than the Virgin ones on the mainline. Even so, the maximum you'll pay from Liverpool is £67 return (Glasgow) or £65 (Edinburgh), often less, which I doubt any airline except EZY/FR could beat. In the past year I've only had one delay and missed connection; the rest of the time it's been seamless, and there's always plenty of other people making the same journey.

Feb 18, 2011 17:33:03 GMT 1 harbourcotter said:

Again there are good opportunities for flybe to undertake a Belfast/Liverpool/Norwich or IOM/Liverpool/Norwich to generate more trade.

I like this idea - it's not something I'd thought of. I don't think we'd sustain it on our own but linked with another flight it's a good idea.

[ametyst]

I think Fly Be would be quite good for Gatwick service from Liverpool

[lfc84]

Liverpool to Central London on train just over 2 hours

you can forget flights imo

[Deleted]

Id like to see a link Liverpool- Cardiff....no flight from Manchester and rail service poor and slow (and no direct from Liverpool) driving is no better. Also Liverpool-Newcastle for same reasons really. Maybe Easterns service from Cardiff to Newcastle could call at Liverpool. Id also like EDI and GLA reinstated.