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Post by Monvillez on Jun 26, 2011 22:22:55 GMT 1
For my sins I reside in Sutton Manor, St Helens. From this location I eyeball LJLA bound aircraft that are vectored in from the North. Normally at around 2000 and making the turn on to base for 27. What's been a bit strange today is that I've seen 3 aircraft with their gear down flying directly over me, still with at least 10 miles to run. I would usually see gear drop somewhere over the bridge or Widnes when I'm out and about. When I'm at home it's the norm for the gear doors to be firmly shut. You may say there was some kind of training going on today but I saw this on 2 different operators; EZY and RYR.
Why might this be? Maybe due to the unusual atmospheric/environmental conditions today? Types were A319 and B738. Just curious........
Regards, Garry
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Post by clifftop on Jun 26, 2011 23:06:11 GMT 1
I genuinely don't know.. but.. The surface wind when I listened to ATIS today was 170 degrees at around 8 knots. Aircraft were landing on 27, this suggests a tail wind, I assume therefore the 2000 ft winds were favouring runway 27.
That being the case, dropping gear and flaps early might be the pilots choice on approach?
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Post by andyh on Jun 27, 2011 15:28:54 GMT 1
It may be that the aircraft in question were doing a visual approach to rwy 27 and as such there tends to be a tighter turn on to finals with the gear down and ready sooner as a result.
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Post by clifftop on Jun 27, 2011 15:37:18 GMT 1
It may be that the aircraft in question were doing a visual approach to rwy 27 and as such there tends to be a tighter turn on to finals with the gear down and ready sooner as a result. Good point. If they're not having to make a long final approach on the instrument landing system localiser, they often do make a considerably tighter turn in especially from the North, that would explain early gear down.
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Post by Speke-EZY on Jun 27, 2011 15:41:26 GMT 1
Hi Monvillez,
I don't know the specific reason for the early lowering of landing gear in the instances you report but this is often done as part of the slowing down process,particularly at busy times when traffic is being sequenced by ATC. Did you happen to notice whether the aircraft you observed were following closely behind another on the approach? Even if they were doing so,this spacing may not have been obvious from your position if the one ahead was arriving from a different direction.
The opposite procedure is sometimes applied. If the lead aircraft is a slow turboprop being caught-up by a faster jet,"number one" often keeps its landing gear stowed away until very late on the approach,lowering it on short finals.
This is just a suggested explanation and may have no bearing on what you saw.
Cheers,Keith
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Post by Dave-B on Jun 27, 2011 20:18:43 GMT 1
From 0900 (when I arrived) to 1200hrs winds at runway level were 0knts and pilots were selecting their own runway for takeoff. 09 and 27 swapped about freqently. If no wind = higher landing speed and gear down = greater drag for landing, pilots put gear down early. Just a thought. Dave B.
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Post by clifftop on Jun 27, 2011 20:36:32 GMT 1
From 0900 (when I arrived) to 1200hrs winds at runway level were 0knts and pilots were selecting their own runway for takeoff. 09 and 27 swapped about freqently. If no wind = higher landing speed and gear down = greater drag for landing, pilots put gear down early. Just a thought. Dave B. Dave, I'm not looking to argue with you, you're in the seat up there, but I am convinced I heard a surface wind of 8kts?? It might have been "instant wind" as per the ATCO at that moment, rather than ATIS as I suggested above...?? Either way, dropping gear and flaps early is for the reason I thought.
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Post by Monvillez on Jun 27, 2011 21:22:33 GMT 1
What a lively debate!
Have just checked Casper to find out more about the Ryanair that flew over me with it's gear firmly down. It was at 14:04, from Dublin calling RYR39NH. Now checking the track of the flight on it's approach it actually flew it's base leg over Great Sankey. I have no reason to believe that the track shown on Casper was not accurate. Having made some rudimentary calculations with Google Earth, it tracked 15 miles in this configuration. Clearly not a visual approach then as it it seemed to line up on to the ILS some 8.5 miles out just West of Daresbury.
I take on board that this may have been due to wind speeds or traffic positioning but to fly over 15 miles with a load of added drag seems a bit strange. As I mentioned in my OP this wasn't the only aircraft I witnessed yesterday with its gear down so far out. I regularly watch them overfly since I've lived here (5 years) and this was the first time I'd ever witnessed this, never mind three times in a single day.
Wonder if any jet jockeys might give us a clue.
Regards, Garry
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Post by Biggles on Jun 27, 2011 21:37:37 GMT 1
Looking at the weather on the Wirral late morning and early afternoon I doubt any flight could have been classed as visual. I was out side my home when a Cessna 172 type crossed Wallasey heading towards Seaforth so low I was concerned there was a problem then probably realised he was trying to remain in site of the ground as the sea mist/ low cloud was closing in from above and all around him.
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Post by clifftop on Jun 27, 2011 21:38:10 GMT 1
It's all very interesting to me. If, IF what I thought I heard was correct, the surface wind was 170 degrees at about 8 knots. That, under other conditions would be a 09 approach. Again, IF I'm correct that the 2000 ft winds were favouring rwy 27, the pilots might want to keep their speed up into wind then turning into a slight cross/tail wind keep nose speed high with lots of lift from flaps. I might be typing utter balderdash!
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Post by clifftop on Jun 27, 2011 21:40:28 GMT 1
This might explain why I keep trashing 'planes on my MS Flight Sim... ;D ;D My head's hurting with all this theory... ;D
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Post by Monvillez on Jun 27, 2011 21:57:58 GMT 1
I was thinking it may have been something a little exotic to do with outside air temperatures, metallurgy and the likes. It was a very warm day with unusually low cloud as Biggles just confirmed.
Regards, Garry
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Post by kevmul on Jun 27, 2011 22:25:44 GMT 1
While I was at the airport awaiting the arrival of the Alitalia, one easyjet pilot asked for a six-mile final as he was 'training'.
Might this have had something to do with one of them?
Kev
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Post by clifftop on Jun 27, 2011 22:34:11 GMT 1
While I was at the airport awaiting the arrival of the Alitalia, one easyjet pilot asked for a six-mile final as he was 'training'. Might this have had something to do with one of them? Kev In my listening experience, a six mile final for a typical "Easy" pilot (A319) is fairly short. Most get vectored onto the ILS beyond the Runcorn-Widnes bridge. An 8 mile final for the ILS seems to be the norm. Training for a shorter final might well be to allow the P2 to experience a "visual approach". My apologies if I have all of this wrong, ATC fascinates me, I'd like to think I have a good take on it.
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Post by Beemer on Jun 27, 2011 22:42:08 GMT 1
Ther doesn't appear to be any hard and fast rules with regards to undercarriage deployment. I live precisely 4.5mls from touchdown at LJLA and the majority start to lower at about 5mls and are opening as they come over my house. But saying that, yesterday I noticed the Ryanair aircraft were doing fast visual left-base approaches for 27 and were "clean", undercarriage not deployed as they banked over my house. I am sure/ well I know that some pilots read this Forum so maybe thay will clarify the matter. Regards Beemer.
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