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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 20:15:02 GMT 1
Was not all off this inevitable? I'm not sure of the costs involved in running the two airports but I would anticipate it costing less to run Liverpool (LPL). As such LPL should be able to offer the airlines involved a cheaper deal. Therefore, it makes me wonder if Manchester (MAN) are offing the Loco's below cost incentives to fly from MAN or they are subsidising them through higher charges to existing airlines. If they are, I should imagine that is illegal under EU rules and therefore, the answer to your question is no! Should I be right in this thinking, then the matter should be referred to the Office of Fair Trading.
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Post by vctr on Oct 15, 2012 20:24:24 GMT 1
Whilst there is no evidence, proof or basis to the argument other than conspiracy theories, There can be offsetting through higher fees to other airlines, but it is not Illegal.
Its like Emirates. They can have super cheap fares from the UK to say, Australia, by offsetting the cost with slightly higher fares to say, India, if the market can support it.
Like I have said before, why is it that LPL's woes are automatically blamed on Manchester? Could it not be the case that there is just a poor 'routes team' in place at Peel/VAS at the moment? As has been pointed out, DSA is having a few issues of its own, and it seems MAN is gaining LPL routes far too easily, as if there is no 'power of persuasion' at the LPL end for the aircraft/routes to stay. After all, easier to keep an aircraft where it is than move it.
It just seems like half the time, its easier to blame 'the airport down the road', than for someone to take accountability and say 'maybe something isn't quite right at the LPL end?'
Its like earlier on in this thread, perfect example. 'Silverback' put forward a very valid point regarding an issue at LPL, the situation as he, a previous passenger, saw it. Rather than say 'yeah, can see why you thought that', or, 'yeah, could be one point to improve', instead at was a simple, off the cuff quip of 'well MAN's otp is poor'. It doesnt matter if 'MAN's otp is poor, that wasn't the issue 'silverback' (the passenger) had. If management at LPL have the same attitude as this, 'no issues here mate, there are also other issues down the road', then no wonder the airlines are telling them to bog off.
In other words, its not always about money, its about offering the airlines, and their passengers, a good all round experience.
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Post by LPL on Oct 15, 2012 22:41:36 GMT 1
Its like earlier on in this thread, perfect example. 'Silverback' put forward a very valid point regarding an issue at LPL, the situation as he, a previous passenger, saw it. Rather than say 'yeah, can see why you thought that', or, 'yeah, could be one point to improve', instead at was a simple, off the cuff quip of 'well MAN's otp is poor'. It doesnt matter if 'MAN's otp is poor, that wasn't the issue 'silverback' (the passenger) had. Let me remind you of the post: There are 2 major negatives each time I fly through LPL and I guess others will have the same perception: 1/ Queuing back outside in cold/wet weather to reach passport control. 2/ Having to walk the entire length of the Terminal building after de-planeing. ie he is complaining of the (unmeasured) time taken. I, on the other hand, quoted official measurements of time taken for OTP.
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Post by vctr on Oct 16, 2012 10:30:26 GMT 1
But that is his perception LPL. To a passenger through LPL, It doesn't matter what issues MAN has. Also, if a passenger has an issue, they don't want to be told 'it could be worse'. They want to be told 'well, I see why you thought that' and addressing the issue. Also, It is actually nothing to do with OTP, but having to queue outside in the cold and walking the length of the terminal.
Like i say, it doesn't matter what issues MAN has, but you cannot simply sweep genuine passenger issues under the rug with the attitude 'doesnt matter, MAN has issues too'. Not exactly a great attitude is it?
Like I say, if management have the same attitude, no wonder airlines are going elsewhere.
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Post by LPL on Oct 16, 2012 13:23:41 GMT 1
It is his thoughts on the matter, my thoughts on the matter is that I have never had to queue outside at LPL and I have had to walk in terminals at other airports throughout the world. Whats new in that.
As for OTP that the official language and FACTS for aircraft being late and its just as relevant too.
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Post by vctr on Oct 16, 2012 14:13:44 GMT 1
Right so basically because YOU personally have not had to queue outside, it is not relevant or acceptable for someone who has waited outside to address it as a concern? Good job you are not management at Liverpool, seems nothing would get addressed, because, by your standards, if YOU don't experience a problem, it doesn't exist or doesn't matter?
Can you imagine a situation at Tesco? You were overcharged for an item, you go back to complain but are told 'well, thats the price it is at Asda, so get over it'? Just doesn't work, does it? Thats the same as your 'there are also issues at MAN, so there' debate.
In regards to your OTP rant, THAT WAS NOT WHAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED, it was you and only you who brought it into the debate. It is not relevant. The poster was complaining about waiting outside, nothing to do with the aircraft being late which was your one man debate.
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Post by viscount on Oct 16, 2012 14:47:52 GMT 1
Think this exchange of views has reached the limit of the argument and is currently heading to a pointless slanging match, with very little more to the gained.
Gentlemen, can we leave this one now please.
Thank you.
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Post by vanguard on Oct 16, 2012 15:21:09 GMT 1
Well said viscount well said.
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Post by vctr on Oct 16, 2012 17:58:54 GMT 1
Viscount.
Ill happily stop, however this cheap point scoring, as in LPL's original post has got to stop.
Always aiming to get in a dig against MAN even if his point is irrelevant to what is being discussed. His point about the otp at MAN had no relevance to either easyjet route news, or the issues experienced by 'silverback', and if you look through the thread history, even before the big lock down, the majority of all slanging matches with posters had one common denominator, user 'LPL'. Seriously, look it up! Most threads are actually quite civil and interesting before he joins in.
#justsaying
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Post by viscount on Oct 16, 2012 20:37:02 GMT 1
The administrators get rather fed up with a descent into slanging matches and pointless, point scoring.
The nwan forum, on a succession of hosts, has been going since the late 90s - earlier than many of the aviation forums, indeed long before many of us had a PC! Unlike some of the larger aviation forum, nwan has prided itself on not wrapping itself up in a raft of authoritarian rules and regulations.
The vast majority of the time, nwan members self regulate, and to everyone's credit the system works extremely well. To a great degree my role as an administrator is, thankfully, not as a 'site policeman' but that of 'housekeeper', tiding up occasionally by locking or merging any duplicated threads, deleting the odd double post and ensuring threads are clearly titled (principally on behalf of those who regularly use 'latest 50 posts' facility, but also to aid key word searches).
In the minds of the administrator and moderators, the reason we are involved in the forum is to manage a wonderful facility and resource for our hobby, with instant exchanging of information. We therefore do tend to get upset when any members go beyond exchanging information to exchanging insults by forceably placing their opposing viewpoints across post after post. While many sites may simply ban the combatants, we would much prefer self constraint and a return to posting information and positive comment by all.
We consider our niche (our home region and area of greatest activity) to be across all of NW England, N Wales & IoM, although openly welcome reports UK, Europe and Worldwide. Although historically, we have a Merseyside origin (mainly reflected in the 'Nostalgia' section), we do not consider the site to be Liverpoolcentric, and some members need to be more ready to accept this.
It is our feeling that the friendly, open, positive, welcoming style of this forum is a massive tribute to our continually growing membership. This is a great strength of this site, lets please keep it that way. A big pat on the back and massive thank you to the huge majority of members, guests and especially posters for such a wide and interesting variety of information and photographs that appear on this forum site. The breadth of knowledge and the variety of places reported from never ceases to amaze.
Brian, a site administrator
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2012 21:24:11 GMT 1
Brian, please let me clarify this for the avoidance of doubt. Its like earlier on in this thread, perfect example. 'Silverback' put forward a very valid point regarding an issue at LPL, the situation as he, a previous passenger, saw it. Rather than say 'yeah, can see why you thought that', or, 'yeah, could be one point to improve', instead at was a simple, off the cuff quip of 'well MAN's otp is poor'. It doesnt matter if 'MAN's otp is poor, that wasn't the issue 'silverback' (the passenger) had. Let me remind you of the post: There are 2 major negatives each time I fly through LPL and I guess others will have the same perception: 1/ Queuing back outside in cold/wet weather to reach passport control. 2/ Having to walk the entire length of the Terminal building after de-planeing. ie he is complaining of the (unmeasured) time taken. I, on the other hand, quoted official measurements of time taken for OTP. LPL, this is a de facto, boots on the floor, non statiscally based personal experience. Having to queue outside after de-planeing in cold and wet conditions on more than 50% of arrivals is not acceptable. How can this give a positive impression to first time, oversea's visitors? Thanks in advance to the mods for allowing this posting, I'm totally pro LJLA, however the level of service needs increasing in line with World Class expectations. I've never had similar issues when travelling with LoCo's in the US (Southwest) and Europe (Air Berlin) so the LoCo = poor service argument doesn't wash. GC
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Post by LPL on Oct 17, 2012 10:02:45 GMT 1
Right so basically because YOU personally have not had to queue outside, it is not relevant or acceptable for someone who has waited outside to address it as a concern? Viscount. Ill happily stop, however this cheap point scoring, as in LPL's original post has got to stop.#justsaying Hmm, so silverbacks point of note is of prime importance (because its a stick you like to beat the airport with) to you but my point of note isnt. Says it all, does it not.
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Post by LPL on Oct 17, 2012 10:09:41 GMT 1
Brian, please let me clarify this for the avoidance of doubt.LPL, this is a de facto, boots on the floor, non statiscally based personal experience. Exactly. but someone doesnt not like my personal experience. Why, I let others judge. However, queuing is as a result of UKBA (ie its not of the airports doing) not processing pax fast enough. Is this as a result of lack of staff? UKBA are recruiting for more staff, but they are not bound for LPL. BTW, happy birthday.
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Post by ian531 on Oct 17, 2012 16:06:01 GMT 1
Well said Carmedic.
I stopped reading this part of the forum well before it was deleted. But since it came back I keep dipping in and out, but now I remember why I stopped reading
Why don't the 2 main posters just swap e-mails and get on with it, at lest then we dont have to read through it all just in case we find some 'Easyjet Route News' as the thread is intended.
Very boring
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 19:41:45 GMT 1
Sorry for perpetuating this, and my final comments...
LPL, let me use a more simplistic analogy: when the wheel bearing failed on my car, the root cause could have been an issue with steel producer, QA at the bearing manufacturer, QA at the Tier 1 hub manufacturer or at Ford. I don't really know but the buck stops at Ford.
Joe Public does not know, or differentiate between UKBA/airline/airport owner. The enduring memory is one of a cold, wet queue after flying home. All of these flights were quite high density so I wouldn't have been alone in this perception.
As stated before I'm pro LJLA but, without getting involved in the machinations of the management team, really think there's a need for a joined up strategy between UKBA/airline/airport, maybe some more detailed resource planning to deal with arrival "peaks" with contingency allowance. Maybe even some capital investment in infrastructure so at least the queue doesn't extend outside.
As I said at the outset, it's customer perception which will sway future booking choices with inevitable consequences to the airports revenue stream.
Back to spotting and birthday celebrations now!
Thanks,
GC
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