Punctuation and pronunciation

[ronturner]

This subject was raised in another section. I thought I would have my say, but in a place more appropriate.

I am annoyed by TV and radio presenters who fail to use our language properly. This doesn't mean we have to go back to the stuffed shirts of old fashioned BBC, but surely there is a limit?
In particular, at the moment, I am fed up with TV and radio reporters who insist on making the letter "T" redundant.
I am told about people who have reached the age of "sevenseen" and other such nonsense. Just listen: Hear how often the "T" is dropped.
I find that when I listen to broadcasters on the English Language version of Russian TV, France 24 and China TV, the English used is usually impeccable, even if an accent is there.

On spelling and punctuation, I have to admit that my spelling can be faulted from time to time, but I try hard with punctuation to get it right. However, if these things are no longer to be taught in school, what hope do we have, and might I dare to ask, is this part of a deliberate policy to eradicate the English language as well as the English people?

I have no difficulty in switching from telephone text language to true English as the need arises, but I am adamant I will not mix the two. Can you just imagine, with all these electronic books coming along, what a nightmare it will be to read a book full of CU and LOL?

(PS. I even manged to write hear as here, first time round, so I am not at all perfect. A simple mistake but not borne out of laziness or lack of basic education.)

[viscount]

English, spoken or written has always been a dynamic language - changing over time, with new words and redundant ones slipping into specialist use. Just look at how it has changed from the times of Chaucer or Shakespeare. The DES report mentioned by Biggles on another thread, looks to a liberalisation of the rules of written English as it felt that the rigid rules taught in schools for the past few decades is constricting the ability of people to express themselves, and is one of the reasons why 'text-speak' has proved to be so popular with the next generation as it removes the fixed rules. While there is a swing towards abandoning rules in order to provide freedom of expression, the need for rules to ensure understanding through the written word is perhaps being overlooked.

Lazy use of spoken English is another matter, and quite apart from regional and second language accents. My current pet hate is the frequent use of 'would of', rather than the grammatically correct 'would have'. Like the use of 'me', rather than 'I', in time probably 'would of' will became the accepted form.

What irks me is the American take-over of the English language and the unquestioning acceptance of this by the leading English language institutions. I'm referring to Microsoft's insideous take-over of the world (more serious than Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds or Kenntucky Fried) - no wonder the world of Islam fears American cultural domination of the world, even the British are accepting it! Color, gray, and 'z' where 's' should be used are now the global correct spellings. Kids from Speke are informed by Microsoft's spell check that they live in a spelling mistake!

Meanwhile, what is often overlooked, is that language is primarily a vehicle of commuication. Clear communication requires all parties to use the same rules. There are however aspects of English that I would be delighted to see changed, as it is without doubt an illogical language at times to learn and use.

[ronturner]

I agree with Brian's comments about evolution and the sometimes illogical aspects of English. For example the Americans use "fall" for Autumn, but this was an old English word taken over there by the Pilgrims. We have taken the French "Autumn" but they kept the old English

Here, trying to learn French I fall into all kinds of traps. We are told in the grammar lessons that nouns with a "e" on the end are feminine. thus "la". But what about La maison. (house with no "e") and even more strange,

La foi (faith) , and
Le foie (Liver)

Its not easy, so I appreciate how students of English struggle, but that is not an excuse for poor education leaving our children in dire lack of knowledge about their language.

RT

[liverpoolman1]

Many is the time I have wrung my hands in frustration at the inappropriate use of our beloved English language throughout the broadcast media and, dare I say it, on this bulletin board. Ronturner and Viscount have highlighted many of them. My current problem, and one upon which I have written to the BBC about, is the use of "already". I first became aware of its mis-use when Mark Lawrenson, a half-back of distinction but no linguist, said, on Match of the Day, that someone "had been booked already". He had either misplaced the "already" or was in the process of converting to Judaism! Each time he says it I am inclined to shout "Oy-vay, my life!" but I desist for fear of being labelled racist. Seriously, listen for the number of times commentators and news readers place "already" at the end of the sentence, and be prepared to wince. For those who are mystified by my obsession, the correct placing is: "he had already been booked".
That's enough for today: just don't get me onto "I seen". AAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[richardheywood]

Split infinitives are my pet hate. I blame Star Trek and "..to boldly go.."

[Deleted]

On TV, most presenters don't seem to know the difference between 'except' and 'accept'. It just seems to blur into one.
I don't blame younger people for not being able to spell/pronounce properly - it's largely down to the changes in the education system in the UK.
In many ways, English is difficult to learn as a foreign language.
How, as a foreigner, do you know how to pronounce, yet people who learn it as a secon language do not (generally) make the grammatical errors that native speakers do. As a foreigner how do you learn to pronounce bough/cough/dough/hough/lough/rough/sough/tough, for example?
In other European languages every noun has a gender, and in the case of German there are three, so you have to remember which word is which gender, otherwise you sound like a numpty - though foreigners are usually quickly corrected and forgiven!
If you're German/Spanish/French/Russian etc., and you commit errors of grammar and spelling in your own language, you're likely to be corrected by your parents/teachers or your peers - I've seen it done, but of course it's un-PC to do it in UK schools, and many parents don't know it's wrong either, so the mistakes are multiplied and passed off as 'regional accents'
US-based spellchecks don't help either, and American constant use of awesome for something which is fairly ordinary, or the 'double really' when one 'really' would be fine drive me mad.
Incidentally if you live in the US and put 'realise' in a letter or e-mail, you'll be pulled about about it, and told to change it to realize.
On this side of the pond you can use either, but I sympathise with Viscount - I prefer the 's', but clearly we are more tolerant then they are...

[johnoakes]

;D
My pet hates as an ex teacher are ,"Different from and similar to." anything else is incorrect.

Then there is the phantom "r" a drawring room is a room where people presumably draw.

A drawring is a ring by which one draws down a blind or similar,it is not a depiction or likeness.

But don't worry under Sharia law it will all be irrelevant--learn the koran in arabic by heart and that is all you need to know.

The kids in Bradford were beaten with metal bars when they made insufficient progress but the soc.workers did not want to know.
It seems its ok to beat brown kids under islam--and not racist . Try beating white kids and telling a soc. worker.
So you may get good lessons and no beatings. If you are lucky.

[ronturner]

One of my daughters is an English teacher in the USA. In fact, last year, she was nominated in the awards for "The best teacher in the USA" She came fourth, for which she earned nothing, but it made me very proud.
However, before she was let loose on American children she had to learn how to spell the American way and sit an exam for it.
A degree at London University was not enough to get a license for teaching English.

[johnoakes]

;D
For teaching American English.LOL

I wonder how ,"Where's moy Daaps" would go down over there.LOL

[jd]

My own pet hate is on the BBC CBBC Channel - I occasionally watch it with the grandchildren. There the word children has obviously been banned for some reason. The word used is always " kids " , and I mean always. At least I suppose its marginally better than " guys ".

[liverpoolman1]

I take comfort from the fact that others are as concerned as I over the demise of our native tongue. When I was young we were corrected both at home and at school if we were slovenly in writing or speaking. I do not think it is right to blame teachers for the demise of our language; the parents of today are NOT DOING THEIR JOB. They, too, think it is "trendy" to speak incorrectly, and to use expletives that make many people shudder, as part of everyday speech. Most teachers will not tolerable bad language in the classroom but sad to say they are fighting a losing battle when they are not backed up by parents. To many very young children - and I mean VERY young children - f*** is an everyday word that is just a part of their vocabulary and they do not see any harm in it. Blame TV and cinema for much of it, but mostly blame the parents who think it "trendy" to speak in such a manner. Sad.
I think it is time I went and sat down in a quiet room with a good book to reassure myself that all is not lost.

[columbo]

Americanisms has to be my pet hate of all time. Apart from positive discrimination and political correctness, but thats a different story. The word film is now "movie" etc.... My answer is if people want to speak American then go and live in America!

[spotter27]

Some TV and Radio idioms which irritate me:

Ahead of What hapened to BEFORE?

Pacifically for Specifically

Vunerable for Vulnerable

Ongoing for continuing

There are many more but these will get you started.

Ray

[Biggles]

We could start a our own grumpy old members club and at least it would be written correctly.

One of the best road signs that got me was located in Croxteth Park I saw whilst en route to visit a relative.

The sign warned drivers as follows.

"PLEASE DRIVE CAREFUL"

It has now been changed. But it took some convincing.

Anymore anyone

[ronturner]

How about "nuculer" instead of nuclear? (This was a "favorite" one of George Bush.)